If a male wears a skirt, they are acting in a transgendered way. — Philosophim

I don't agree with this view. I have individual freedom to wear what I want, unless I'm breaking laws or protocols. My gender is solely tied to my sex.

There is nothing inherent in being male or female that would drive a man not to wear a skirt and a woman to wear one — Philosophim

Culture is a social construct. Sex/gender is not. Don't let society label your sex, nor let yourself get fooled by yourself by confusing your traits to be your gender (sex).

Yes, you logically said that.
— Philosophim

No, I didn't. I said that the word "man" is used to refer to cis men and used to refer to trans men. — Michael

And what does the word 'man' mean without those modifiers? What do those modifiers mean when they're added to the base word 'man'?

If a male wears a skirt, they are acting in a transgendered way.
— Philosophim

I don't agree with this view. I have individual freedom to wear what I want, unless I'm breaking laws or protocols. My gender is solely tied to my sex. — Copernicus

Gender is cultural. Meaning that if you understand the culture of a place, agree with that gendered culture, and purposefully act in a way that is against the gender of that that culture for your sex, and intentionally take the gender of the opposite sex, you are acting transgendered.

Obviously a person can believe that a man and a woman can wear a dress and it has nothing to do with their sex. However, the culture will. If you insist to the culture that wearing a dress has nothing to do with being a woman, then you are having a subjective conflict about gender. That is not transgender. Transgender is agreeing with a particular viewpoint about what non-biological behavior should be done in public by men and women, then purposefully doing behavior that is expected of the opposite sex, not yours.

Culture is a social construct. Sex/gender is not. — Copernicus

According to gender theory gender is a social construct. What definition would you like to propose for gender instead? Why is that a better definition to use than the one's I've put above?

And what does the word 'man' mean without those modifiers? — Philosophim

It's an umbrella term that includes cis men and trans men.

What do those modifiers mean when they're added to the base word 'man'? — Philosophim

A cis man is someone whose sex is male and gender is male. A trans man is someone whose sex is female and gender is male.

if you understand the culture of a place, agree with that gendered culture, and purposefully act in a way that is against the gender of that that culture for your sex, and intentionally take the gender of the opposite sex, you are acting transgendered. — Philosophim

No offense, but that's horseshit. And as a radical individualist, I don't believe in community or culture.

Transgender is agreeing with a particular viewpoint about what non-biological behavior should be done in public by men and women, then purposefully doing behavior that is expected of the opposite sex, not yours. — Philosophim

Transgender is having both male and female sexual parts in a single body (naturally or surgically).

What definition would you like to propose for gender instead? — Philosophim

SEX. Gender means Sex.

And what does the word 'man' mean without those modifiers?
— Philosophim

It's an umbrella term that includes cis men and trans men. — Michael

That is not an answer. If I asked, "What is a sheep?" and you replied, "Its an umbrella term that includes black and white sheep." you would think I wasn't thinking very logically or actively avoiding the question. Define the word man without reference to modifiers please.

It doesn’t have just one meaning. It can refer to sex or it can refer to gender. This isn’t to say that it is equally likely to refer to gender as sex.

No offense, but that's horsheshit. And as a radical individualist, I don't believe in community or culture. — Copernicus

You don't believe in 'following' community or culture. Obviously you believe community and culture exist. Gender according to gender theory is the cultural expectation of non-biological behavior of a sex within that culture or community. You do not have to follow or recognize the gender of that community or culture, but you should be able to recognize that communities and cultures have expectations of behavior of people within them. Expectations of behavior in regards to a person's sex are gender.

Transgender is having both male and female sexual parts in a single body (naturally or surgically). — Copernicus

There is no definition of transgender that I am aware of that uses that definition. That's normally called intersex or hermaphrodism.

SEX. Gender means Sex. — Copernicus

This is an older meaning of the term prior to gender theory. When talking about trans individuals, gender is defined as I've noted above. Transgendered individuals are not transsexual individuals. A transgendered individual acts and behaves as is expected of the opposite sex within that culture. If you have not been exposed to these definitions before, I can see how they can be confusing. If you wish to use sex and gender interchangeably to refer to sex, that's fine on a personal note. If you are communicating within the context of a transgendered individual, just understand gender is not the same as sex anymore.

It doesn’t just have one meaning. It can refer to sex or it can refer to gender. This isn’t to say that it is equally likely to refer to gender as sex. — Michael

Neither does sheep. You are still avoiding the question. Please give me a clear definition of man. If it has multiple meanings, explain what context is required for it to change meaning.

ou do not have to follow or recognize the gender of that community or culture, but you should be able to recognize that communities and cultures have expectations of behavior of people within them — Philosophim

Yes, but I don't support the idea of unions, especially the involuntary ones. Same as the social contract.

intersex — Philosophim

That's the natural transgenderism.

gender theory — Philosophim

Must be a pretty stupid theory coined by confused people.

Obviously if "man" is only about sex, trans men are not men. But this "if" is what is being debated, so you're just begging the question.

The debate has been going on for years, and you have made no attempt to research it or address the arguments that defend the notion that trans women are women etc., i.e., the sophisticated arguments which try to show that the terms "man" and "woman" are more complex than your snappy definition allows.

See for example the idea that "man" and "woman" are cluster concepts:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-gender/

Must be a pretty stupid theory coined by confused people. — Copernicus

Your opinion is your own, I'm not here to argue for or against the validity of it. I'm simply assuming that if the definitions are true, can it be logically claims that a transman is a man? No.

I'm simply assuming that if the definitions are true, can it be logically claims that a transman is a man? No. — Philosophim

If he has XY chromosomes, yes.

Obviously if "man" is only about sex, trans men are not men. But this "if" is what is being debated, so you're just begging the question. — Jamal

I'm not begging the question at all. Clearly defining terms then thinking if claims using those terms lead to logical outcomes is a normal discussion. You are very free to define 'man' in another way, you'll just need to argue why it is and if that definition makes sense in normal language use. If you want to argue a specific counter to the point I've made, feel free.

The debate has been going on for years, and you have made no attempt to research it or address the arguments that defend the notion that trans women are women etc — Jamal

Now this is a proper logical fallacy called Ad Hominem. You're attacking assumptions and qualifications about my character instead of addressing the points.

See for example the idea that "man" and "woman" are cluster concepts:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-gender/ — Jamal

Fantastic, but I am not here to debate with an entire wiki on sex and gender. Is there a specific argument you want to make that would counter what I've noted in the OP? Just because there are discussions about alternative definitions to man and woman does not mean that you can make the existential fallacy that they are correct in reference to the discussion I've started here.

I'm simply assuming that if the definitions are true, can it be logically claims that a transman is a man? No.
— Philosophim

If he has XY chromosomes, yes. — Copernicus

Yes, in modern day separation of sex and gender, chromosomes indicate a person's sex. I don't think we're in overall disagreement Copernicus, but I think we're talking about two different definitions in regards to gender theory. You may want to check out gender theory before continuing so we're on the same page. I appreciate the discussion regardless!

That is a really stupid post.

That is a really stupid post. — Jamal

Ha ha! You do realize that the person who first insults the other person in a normal discussion is the one who has no real answer right? Thank you for confirming that you cannot counter my point and only an insult of dislike can be lobbed my way.

Plenty can be lobbed your way. It's just not worth it. I have my sanity and peace of mind to preserve.

It’s so glaringly untrue that one can only wonder why one is really saying it. The phrase serves as a piece of doublespeak, not necessarily a statement of fact. So the purposes are probably myriad: to “go along” with the act, to train the one who chants it, to signal allegiance to the cause, or to bully those who deviate.

Plenty can be lobbed your way. It's just not worth it. I have my sanity and peace of mind to preserve. — Jamal

I suppose discussions on a philosophy board can be tiring and not worth it. And when one isn't able to argue one's points effectively, and realizes they are at risk to be proven wrong, it can affect one's sanity and peace of mind. Go watch a few shows of Friends on Netflix or something today and don't worry your silly little head over matters like this.

It’s so glaringly untrue that one can only wonder why one is really saying it. — NOS4A2

I'm trying to discuss this from a logical standpoint of vocabulary, not asking for a person's motivation for wanting one or the other. I'm sure that's another philosophical discussion that could be had, but I want to focus here on the logic of the terminology and use itself. Appreciate the contribution regardless NOS.

I answered your question.

Your opening post shows that you understand the distinction between sex and gender, given that you use the phrases "female who expresses with male gender" and "male who expresses with female gender".

I am explaining to you that the English word "man" can mean "a person whose biological sex is male" and it can mean "a person whose gender is male".

Despite your apparent suggestion that words should only mean one thing, they sometimes don't. Natural languages are messy. Accept it.

Man - adult human male by sex
Woman- adult human female by sex — Philosophim

Yet we have, "be a man", "what a man", "what a woman".

Most of the world does not view man and woman by gender, but by sex, so the default goes to sex. — Philosophim

The terms are as fluid as gender is supposed to be. They are a package, containing both sex and normative role. Which meaning is emphasized depends on context. And so the two meanings blur together in our minds.

So are transwomen women? Are transwomen men? No. The terms man and woman indicate a person's age and sex, not gender. Are transwomen men who act with a female gender? Yes. Are transmen women who act with a male gender? Yes. — Philosophim

Whether or not, I agree with your answer, in the past similar types of conclusions have led to threats of banning. I don’t think this question can be honestly discussed here on the forum.

I am explaining to you that the English word "man" can mean "a person whose biological sex is male" and it can mean "a person whose gender is male". — Michael

Ok, this is the first time I've seen you try to define it explicitly. So we have two definitions for the word. Then to be clear, if I state, "A trans male is an adult female by sex that acts as a gendered male," you would have to agree that in this context, this is a correct statement.

You would also agree that if I said, "Man", and meant gender only, that saying, "A trans man is a man by gender" that still leaves out the question of sex. Because we have another phrase "Cis man". "A cis man is a man by gender". Do you see that without a reference to sex, the terms trans and cis are synonyms and meaningless?

Therefore trans and cis only make sense when noting a person's gender in relation to their sex. So "Trans men are men" and "Cis men are men" cannot have man being a gender context alone if the phrases are going to make any sense or have any logical distinction between them. Thus while perhaps there can be a context in which "Man" is a referent purely to gender, it cannot be so in the case of these phrases.

That being said, I also asked you what context is needed for man to mean sex versus man to mean gender. Further, in the case in which man is used as gender, what term do we use to identity adult male by sex to differentiate 'man by sex' vs 'man by gender'?

The terms are as fluid as gender is supposed to be. They are a package, containing both sex and normative role. Which meaning is emphasized depends on context — hypericin

Right, but it doesn't mean two things at once in the same context. What context is it reasonable to use man as sex vs man as gender? Note my reply above where I note that 'man as gender' does not provide clear or meaningful information when used in regards to trans and cis.

Whether or not, I agree with your answer, in the past similar types of conclusions have led to threats of banning. — T Clark

I will have faith that a philosophy board will let people do philosophy.

I will have faith that a philosophy board will let people do philosophy. — Philosophim

That’s not always the case here, but so far I guess nobody’s complained.

So are transwomen women? Are transwomen men? No. The terms man and woman indicate a person's age and sex, not gender. Are transwomen men who act with a female gender? Yes. Are transmen women who act with a male gender? Yes. — Philosophim

My thinking has changed over the years. 50 years ago, I accepted the concepts of transsexualism as a valid explanation for a profound personal dissatisfaction with life as they had experienced it. As "trans ideology" has developed, I have no confidence that it is a valid concept.

Trans men and women are engaged in an elaborate "drag" performance. Usually, drag is performed on a stage of some sort, for a short period of time. Afterwards, the performer goes back to their customary style in life. Drag can be quite elaborate, or relatively simple. I can understand extending one's man/woman drag act into one's whole life, and announcing that one is now a woman or a man. I don't know why, but some people find the opposite sex's roles and ways of being far more attractive than their own sex's ways of being. BUT, the person performing a drag act, for 10 minutes or 10 years, remains the sex he or she was born with, and no amount of costuming, hair styling, cosmetics, surgery, hormones, occupational change, etc. can change that.

I don't want to suggest that there are all kinds of drag acts that everyone is engaged in. However, many people conduct themselves in roles which are quite at odds with their everyday life. Otherwise quite conventional people may be members of political groups whose programs are incompatible with their conventional life (whether that be far right or far left). Some people's sex lives are wildly inconsistent with the sort of life they lead during work hours. Some people's literary or musical preferences are a complete mis-match with their expected choices--75 year old women performing punk rock, for instance (an actual thing).

Fine. That's what makes life interesting and meaningful for people. And it is valid as long as their preferences are not claimed to make them "different kinds of people". In my own case, I could have pretended to be a member of a revolutionary cell, committed to violent regime change. I could have pretended to be an academic scholar, committed to (oh, some standard field of study... whatever). I could have pretended to be a radical sexual renegade, engaging in wild sexual activities. So, in my case, I was a peaceful leftist, kind of academically oriented but not an academic, and a conventionally promiscuous gay guy. I have led a sober, conventional life as a gay man. My "drag act" was very tame.

So yes, trans men and women are performing an extensive drag act. I am sure this view is rejected by trans people. But it isn't so unusual for ordinary men and women to occupy unconventional roles: women who drive heavy construction equipment; men who raise children by themselves; men who are nurses; women who are soldiers. They perform these opposite sex-roles without being confused about their own actual sex role.

As "trans ideology" has developed, I have no confidence that it is a valid concept. — BC

While I do appreciate your weigh in, I'm trying to focus the discussion on the words and phrases themselves. Whether a person agrees with trans ideology or not should be irrelevant to the discussion at hand. This is an attempt to tackle the philosophical concept of stating "Transmen are men" and how we can interpret that to mean anything logical. Would you like to weigh in on that portion of the OP or counter some who are insisting that the OP is not correct?