The fed lowered interest rates today. What that means is that all of you folks who predicted calamity from the trade war were just wrong. Things have gone pretty much the way Trump predicted: American demand is being redirected to either domestic suppliers or countries with favored trade status.

The psychological oddity is the degree to which people allow anger and disdain to blind then to facts straight in front of them.

The fed lowered interest rates today. What that means is that all of you folks who predicted calamity from the trade war were just wrong. Things have gone pretty much the way Trump predicted: American demand is being redirected to either domestic suppliers or countries with favored trade status. — frank

The fed cuts rates when things slow down. In other words demand has been stifled, not redirected.

The fed cuts rates when things slow down. In other words demand has been stifled, not redirected. — Metaphysician Undercover

No.

Spying on your political opponents in a fishing-expedition to find evidence of criminal activity, because there was no probable cause to justify the spying in the first place, is anti-Trumpism manifest. Trump and his ilk are such obvious criminals that we must corruptly abuse the justice system in order to find the crimes, which in the end we couldn’t. All the usual corrupt rogues are of course present in this ever-growing scandal.

Jan. 6 probe potentially investigated over 150 Republicans, documents show

https://www.axios.com/2025/10/29/trump-january-6-republican-senators-fbi-arctic-frost

Spying on your political opponents... — NOS4A2

There's nothing wrong with spying. It's how we find out what those who are not forthcoming in their admissions, are really up to. Probable cause is not necessary, because spying is how we determine probable cause, therefore prior to it. Those who have nothing to hide don't worry about the spies.

There's nothing wrong with spying. — Metaphysician Undercover

You've always been a man of mystery, MU! Thankfully one fact has been brought to light. You're clearly not a minor, one responsible for one, a female, or a minority.

Because otherwise, yeah. Spying is a form of harassment and mental assault on a person's human rights. It is akin to stalking, threatening without threatening. Restricting their movements, patterns, habits, and even thoughts. Presenting an unknown danger and essentially constantly tickling the "fight or flight" part of the brain with a feather. Or jagged piece of metal.

Those who have nothing to hide don't worry about the spies. — Metaphysician Undercover

This is also not true. You assume people who live lives of deceit are for some reason moral people who would never lie, commit sabotage, or plant evidence that would hinder people of another "team" or race or ethnic group or religion or what have you. That people wouldn't do things at the expense of another to get ahead or further either one's individual or collective interest(s). This is sheer ignorance of the global community and basic history (as well as human nature).

Come on, man, you're slipping! :razz:

This is of course, completely fake; but keep smiling.

There are many here among us,
Who feel that life is but a joke. — Bob Dylan

Trump backed down in his standoff against China. Indeed all Trumps antics have strengthened China and weakened the US on the world stage. China had already won the trade war, before Trump was elected to office. They must be taking him for a chump now.

Trump backed down in his standoff against China. Indeed all Trumps antics have strengthened China and weakened the US on the world stage. China had already won the trade war, before Trump was elected to office. They must be taking him for a chump now. — Punshhh

Ok? Trump doesn't care much how the US appears to the rest of the world. In large part, the standing of the US is something the rest of the world created in the first place. It's been clear that Trump is isolationist for the thousands of years he's been on world stage. Seems like thousands, anyway.

Point is: whether they take him for a chump is their problem. Not his. Or mine.

Gift link to NY Times editorial - The 12 ways in which Trump is eroding democracy/ moving towards authoritarianism. (The first graphic is a video of the arrest of Rumeysa Öztürk, which was particularly chilling - being stopped on the street by masked, plainclothes ICE officers, for writing a pro-palestinian article in a student newspaper. 'Orwellian' is over-used for MAGA, but it really is. Rumeysa Öztürk was eventually released and is pursuing a wrongful arrest claim through the legal system.)

There's nothing wrong with spying.

Good lord.

Why is everyone around here so strongly against spying? Have you succumbed to paranoia? If you want to find out what someone is up to, you spy on them. How is there anything wrong with that?

Who have you spied on?

Other than checking the whereabouts of my kids on the phone app, I don't get the urge to spy. However, I accept it as a reasonable and legitimate way of checking up on someone whom you suspect.

They are children and you are their father. The claim “there is nothing wrong with spying” pertains to all those who “get the urge to spy”, who “want to find out what someone is up to“. Are you fine with them checking up on the whereabouts of your children?

They are children and you are their father. The claim “there is nothing wrong with spying” pertains to all those who “get the urge to spy”, who “want to find out what someone is up to“. Are you fine with them checking up on the whereabouts of your children? — NOS4A2

Sure, why would I not be fine with it? It's just a natural and acceptable part of our society. It's sometimes required and useful for identifying wrong doers. If someone (my children, or even myself) is suspected, then that person will be checked up on. And the thing is, that the spying is required before knowing whether the person is a wrong doer or not, it's based on suspicion.

I mean I wouldn't disown my society just because people have the right, and will, to spy on others within it. No, I understand the reasons why people spy, and I accept it as an unavoidable, natural, and rational thing for human beings to do. This is because many human beings are inclined toward bad deeds, and to avoid being prevented from carrying them out, or being punished for carrying them out, they attempt to hide this inclination. Therefore they must be watched when they think no one is watching (spied on), to identify that inclination toward bad deeds.

However, if the spiers fabricate evidence, or do other dishonest things, then that's a different story. But that's not a faultiness of spying in specific.

Sure, why would I not be fine with it? — Metaphysician Undercover

Why would you not be fine with strangers tracking your children?! Are you serious? What an absolutely mad question to even ask!
And you’re comfortable with just anyone making a decision about what is suspicious or not? Or is it just the organizations that can enforce through violence?
Should we all spy on each other? Make sure no one we know is doing anything they aren’t supposed to?
Your position is utterly baffling to me, what am I not understanding?

'Orwellian' is over-used for MAGA, but it really is. — Wayfarer

It reminds me of the Stasi and East Germany.

Why would you not be fine with strangers tracking your children?! Are you serious? What an absolutely mad question to even ask! — DingoJones

It's quite likely happening already, and also completely legal. Why should I worry about something I can't do anything about? That just makes a person miserable. And if it's happening it's not hurting anyone anyway. So if I worried about it, I would be the only one being hurt by it. I'm not interested in self-inflicted harm.

Should we all spy on each other? — DingoJones

If that's what you like to do, then go right ahead. I'm sure there are many who already practise, so you won't be alone. I won't be joining you though, I've got better things to do with my time, like hanging around TPF.

It's quite likely happening already, and also completely legal. Why should I worry about something I can't do anything about? That just makes a person miserable. And if it's happening it's not hurting anyone anyway. So if I worried about it, I would be the only one being hurt by it. I'm not interested in self-inflicted harm. — Metaphysician Undercover

This isnt a question of not worrying about what you cannot control. You are really not concerned about say a pedophile spying in your kids? Spying itself isn’t necessarily doing direct harm but the results from spying is the intelligence used to inflict all kinds of harm.
Also, I didnt suggest worrying all the time but good lord in heaven man you can take reasonable precautions against people gathering intelligence (spying) to use against you.

If that's what you like to do, then go right ahead. I'm sure there are many who already practise, so you won't be alone. I won't be joining you though, I've got better things to do with my time, like hanging around TPF. — Metaphysician Undercover

Perhaps define more how you mean “spying”? Im still utterly baffled by this shoulder shrugging on spying with no exceptions or caveats.

You are really not concerned about say a pedophile spying in your kids? — DingoJones

You are changing the goal posts. I am fine with the basic principle as stated "strangers tracking my children". I believe that is a natural, unavoidable, and fundamentally lawful, aspect of our society. But now you ask about a "pedophile", and a pedophile is psychologically ill, or a dangerous criminal. Do you see the difference? You've totally changed the question. Of course I'd be concerned about a pedophile spying on my children. I'm concerned about the very existence of pedophiles. But I'm not concerned about the existence of spying

Also, I didnt suggest worrying all the time but good lord in heaven man you can take reasonable precautions against people gathering intelligence (spying) to use against you. — DingoJones

If the prospect of people gathering intelligence to use against you bothers you, then by all means take reasonable precautions against it. But if it doesn't bother some of us, then why should we make that effort?

Perhaps define more how you mean “spying”? Im still utterly baffled by this shoulder shrugging on spying with no exceptions or caveats. — DingoJones

Let's take your words, "gathering intelligence". And we should add "in secrecy". But not necessarily, "to use against you" though, so remove that as a requirement. The reasons for spying have a very wide range, and the person spied on is not necessarily targeted as one whom the intelligence will be "used against" at any time. Often people spy with the intent of helping the person spied on, so the intelligence in this case, would be used to assist you rather than against you.

You are changing the goal posts. — Metaphysician Undercover

No Im not. “Strangers” includes harmless folks and harmful folks, the requirement is only that you don’t know them. Some strangers can and will use spying for harm, ergo we should have some concern about spying.

If the prospect of people gathering intelligence to use against you bothers you, then by all means take reasonable precautions against it. But if it doesn't bother some of us, then why should we make that effort? — Metaphysician Undercover

It should bother you, and it does in the case of a pedophile so you are not actually unbothered by spying. You are unbothered by harmless spying (a minority of spying). That doesnt mean you should let your guard down does it?

Why are you so invested in not being bothered by spying?

Let's take your words, "gathering intelligence". And we should add "in secrecy". But not necessarily, "to use against you" though, so remove that as a requirement — Metaphysician Undercover

“To use against you” is the concern. Because spying includes the distinct possibility of being used against you I think it is in fact a requirement. Without that requirement
You are ignoring the majority use of spying.

No Im not. “Strangers” includes harmless folks and harmful folks, the requirement is only that you don’t know them. Some strangers can and will use spying for harm, ergo we should have some concern about spying. — DingoJones

I think I sufficiently indicated that I have concern about those who will do harm, because they do harm. I don't have concern about the act of spying because that act does no harm in itself.

Why are you so invested in not being bothered by spying? — DingoJones

I believe in placing blame where blame is due, distinguishing acts which are bad from acts which are not, and not letting myself be concerned by acts of other people which are not bad. If an act of another person is not causing harm why should I be concerned about it?

“To use against you” is the concern. Because spying includes the distinct possibility of being used against you I think it is in fact a requirement. — DingoJones

My kitchen knives have the distinct possibility of being used against me. That's a fact, and requirement of being a knife, it cuts flesh.

You are ignoring the majority use of spying. — DingoJones

As I said, the reasons for spying have a very wide range. I do not believe that there is any such thing as "the majority use of spying", except as we defined, "gathering intelligence".

Ok.

BBC director general (Tim Davie) and the chief executive of BBC news (Deborah Turness) have both resigned over a debacle relating to misleading editing of footage of Donald Trump on January 6th. Quite a story!

The BBC is unreliable. That's been true for years.