Jeremy Murray
Not quite. 'trans' hasn't existed many places at all. Most instances quoted are, in fact, torturous attempts to relitigate instances of historical homophobia. What's happening now isn't too far off, as you've noted elsewhere. Most trans youth resile into being gay at puberty.
What I meant by true is 'verifiable'. Claiming to be trans is nonsense, on it's face. Not that it can't mean anything at all socially, but on it's face, its like claiming to be a rock. Your second point is taken, and the sudden drop in identification in the last 18 months seems to suggest something along those lines. — AmadeusD
Mikie
I'm wondering what you are yet to see a convincing argument for. — Janus
Janus
AmadeusD
Janus
I suggest if you cannot imagine a level of interest sufficient to have motivated the OP, you are not paying attention to the world around you. This has been a hot-button issue for years. Largely in feminist circles. — AmadeusD
Banno
The philosophically interesting part is the use of erroneous accounts of language, especially flawed accounts of definition, in order to push particular attitudes and prejudices.I agree it's a non-issue, and I can't imagine a level of interest sufficient to have motivated the OP. — Janus
Sirius
I want to go a step beyond that, to include, along side Davidson's point, the one made in Philosophical Investigations, §201; that there are ways of following and going against a rule that are not said, but shown; and this I take to be indicating that it is the activity that is at the core, not the rule. — Banno
Banno
Sirius
"Wittgenstein was a social conservative… therefore his philosophy supports conservative conclusions." - an instance of the genetic fallacy.
Wittgenstein does not ground meaning in blind traditionalism. A form of life is not a tradition; it is the pattern of activities within which language-games have sense. — Banno
Our language can be seen as an ancient city: a maze of little streets and squares, of old and new houses, and of houses with additions from various periods; and this surrounded by a multitude of new boroughs with straight regular streets and uniform houses. — Investigations, 18
It is, however, important as regards this observation that one human being can be a complete enigma to another. We learn this when we come into a strange country with entirely strange traditions; and, what is more, even given a mastery of the country's language. We do not understand the people. (And not because of not knowing what they are saying to themselves.) We cannot find our feet with them. — Investigations, Ilxi 225
“Deeply rooted traditions never disappear.”
Nuh:
The divine right of kings
Women as legal non-persons
Racial segregation as a legal norm
Capital punishment for homosexuality
The theological–political identity of the medieval state
Aristotelian medieval physics — Banno
Nuh. Wittgenstein's approach to rule following says nothing about domination; it says you cannot follow a rule privately. The point is public criteria, not authority or obedience. — Banno
Following a rule is analogous to obeying an order. We are trained to do so; we react to an order in a particular way. — Investigations, 206
When I obey a rule, I do not choose.
I obey the rule blindly. — Investigations,219
Claiming that "Progressivism is a secular myth" is mere assertion. And even if granted, says nothing about contemporary linguistic and social practices around gender; certainly not that they are illegitimate. — Banno
Philosophim
Better to drop the idea of a "personal meaning" altogether, and instead of introspection of any sort, look at how the word is actually being used, both in the thread and in the wider community. This form Wittgenstein — Banno
Moreover, it is not true that there are "...rules and intents that allow an explicit standard of communication and vocabulary to start from", if by this is meant that language functions by following rules. — Banno
These make sense, and are standard English. Metaphor an novelty are not outside of plain English, but central to it. — Banno
We have found it useful to differentiate physically determined attributes of males and females from social norms relating to men and women. At issue is how we might maintain consistency in this new usage. — Banno
We ought keep in mind that neither the classifications male/female nor man/woman are exclusive nor complete. — Banno
On this account, "Trans women are women" is a tautology, or a category mistake. Contrast "Trans women are male", which will be true in most cases. — Banno
Philosophim
Sure, but those for whom it is an issue because they are trans are unfortunate victims of unthinking prejudice. — Janus
As I said earlier, apart from transwomen in womens' sport, it is a very simple issue―people just need to live and let live, but of course they won't until the prejudices die a natural death. — Janus
Philosophim
And yet, Wittgenstein was a social conservative who wasn't pleased with women having voting rights. I imagine he would be even more disappointed to see people using his philosophy in defense of transgenderism. You can't disconnect the man from his ideas. — Sirius
If anything, like Hegel, Wittgenstein is an advocate of master-slave rule forming dialectic. For him, all of us blindly following traditions is essential to mastering rules of all kinds. — Sirius
Janus
Philosophim
↪Philosophim What actual problem is there with a transwoman using women's public toilets (which is what I assume you are referring to)? — Janus
Janus
Philosophim
Who says public toilets are separated by sex, not gender? Is it written somewhere? On toilets perhaps? — Janus
In any case if a transwoman looks like a woman how are the others in the toilet to know she is not a woman? Women don't see each other's genitals in public toilets. So, what's the problem. — Janus
If a transwoman looks like a man, so what? — Janus
It's a non-issue. — Janus
Janus
Philosophim
It's a non-issue because your sex is your own business. — Janus
You have provided no argument as to why it is important outside of women's sport. — Janus
Because sex separation is based on biology. Women's bathrooms do not have urinals. Females have periods that they need to take care of. Heterosexual norms put female nakedness at risk to male nakedness. — Philosophim
People don't generally know what sex the others in a woman's toilet is. — Janus
So you are saying it is ok for someone to deceive another person, and as long as they are not caught, the deception is ok? That doesn't change the fact the spaces are divided by sex. Further, trans gender demands do not require a male or female to have transitioned in any way to override the sex difference. A man in men's clothing who appears to be a man in all intents and purposes should be allowed to use the female space because they feel like a woman internally. Remember that gender has nothing to do with one's sex. So a person can be a gender of the other sex, but looks wise appear stereotypical to their sex. — Philosophim
Do you object to transmen using men's toilets? — Janus
Banno
Thanks, you too - but that American holiday is one of the few not to make it big Dow Nunder. We don't celebrate it.Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving Banno! — Philosophim
We agree, it seems, that male and female are understood in relation to each other, that the one makes no sense without the other. When I said that they are not exclusive, I had in mind such things as the existence of hermaphrodites, and intersex organisms, both human and otherwise. These are physical characteristics.Male and female are not defined apart from one another, but by the comparison of one to the other. If there was only one 'sex', then that would be 'the being'. Sex is indicated by biological differences in potential reproductive capability and roles that are exclusionary of one another. In this they are complete. — Philosophim
frank
Philosophim
When I said that they are not exclusive, I had in mind such things as the existence of hermaphrodites, and intersex organisms, both human and otherwise. These are physical characteristics. — Banno
And with incomplete, I was allowing for the unknown, allowing that we might change our usage of "male' and "female" for some reason, or use these words in novel ways in novel situations. — Banno
The use of "male", "female, "man", and "woman" is not fixed immutably by nature, but chosen by people in order to do certain things. — Banno
And it is often about the acceptance or rejection of people who's behaviour differs from our own, or from our expectations. — Banno
Banno
I'd not be so quick to affirm this. As we agreed, I think, applying "adult human female" is to an end, and not immutable. Taking it as immutable seems reassuring to those of a conservative leaning, but it leads to its own set of issues. There are, as an extreme example, genetically female people with male sex organs.It is not prejudiced to note that a trans gendered man is an adult human female. — Philosophim
Philosophim
This is a really good speech by a trans woman. Early on, she says she's been asked if she feels 100% like a woman. She answers that she feels 100% like a transgender woman. — frank
I found myself so grateful for the nod to an attitude that I can understand, that I was inclined to honor everything about this person, their decisions, their story. Her story. — frank
Banno
A hermaphrodite would not be male or female, but contain the gametes of both. — Philosophim
Banno
Janus
Because sex separation is based on biology. Women's bathrooms do not have urinals. Females have periods that they need to take care of. Heterosexual norms put female nakedness at risk to male nakedness. — Philosophim
So you are saying it is ok for someone to deceive another person, and as long as they are not caught, the deception is ok? — Philosophim
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