There is no argument that gender isn't stereotypes that works. So yes.

I get what you're trying to say and I don't disagree with the central tenets. Though folks who discuss these issues use terms like "I'm a man" and "you're not a man" casually (meaning that sex based language to describe either sex or gender identity at various times). In addition, some of the subjective gender markers include changing one's look, obviously including surgery.

Gender: The non-biological expectations that one or more people have about how a sex should express themselves in public. For example, "Men are expected to wear top hats, women are not."

I do not think there is a debate as to the reality and usefulness of the terms above. — Philosophim

I would debate.
It seems to be more complex than just the set of presentations -- most of us have met "tomboy" like women, or men who dress quite femininely (or even cross dress) who nevertheless would never consider themselves trans. And, linking back to sex, why do some trans people choose to have a sex change, or even just hormone therapy. The way you've separated sex and gender and rationalized the latter doesn't appear compatible with doing anything that the world at large isn't seeing.
I'm not saying that social expectations aren't a big part of this, I just feel it's a bad definition to start from.

Even further, if William himself stated, "I cook in the kitchen, therefore I'm not a man", this would ALSO be sexist. — Philosophim

No-one says that though.
No-one says "I like soap operas, therefore I am a woman".
I would probably agree that there is a degree of sexism in such a statement, were someone to make it, but it isn't a realistic depiction of gender dysphoria.

I would debate. — Mijin

Please do! Its important to explore different view points.

It seems to be more complex than just the set of presentations -- most of us have met "tomboy" like women, or men who dress quite femininely (or even cross dress) who nevertheless would never consider themselves trans. — Mijin

If you mean 'trans gender' that is because gender is subjective. If a person does not consider their behavior as only belonging to men, then they don't see themselves as trans gender. But there are people who think, "I'm aggressive, and only men are supposed to be aggressive. Maybe I'm a man?"

And, linking back to sex, why do some trans people choose to have a sex change, or even just hormone therapy. — Mijin

That's not a trans gender individual, but a trans sexual individual. Such a person wants to change their body either because they hate their own sex, or desire to be the other sex. Trans gender and trans sexuals are separate. A person can be trans gender and have no desire to change their body, while a trans sexual can change their body while having no desire to change their gender. Desiring to change the body also does not require sexism. Some people truly desire the physical traits of the other sex, but are not sexist. They just want a beard or breasts.

Even further, if William himself stated, "I cook in the kitchen, therefore I'm not a man", this would ALSO be sexist.
— Philosophim

No-one says that though.
No-one says "I like soap operas, therefore I am a woman". — Mijin

A dear friend of mine who is in the middle of transition has said such things as, "Going bald really bothers me, gender dysphoria is real isn't it?" and, "I keep finding things on the internet that I like are followed by lesbians. I must be a lesbian." He really believes he's a lesbian by the way despite the fact I've pointed out how 'sexual orientationist' his reasoning is. He can't even imagine a sexual encounter with someone else if he doesn't imagine himself as a woman being involved. Its pretty obvious that its a sexual desire he has as a male to be a woman, but he uses 'gender' to lie to himself and others that 'that's not what its about'. Even though he constantly reads lesbian romance novels. Even though I've seen how he looks at himself in discord, strokes his long hair enthusiastically and gets a moment of lust that crosses his face.

Remember that sexism is either ignorance enforced by culture, or a lie for power over something you often can't otherwise control. He can't control his sexual urges. Therefore he uses gender to lie and cover it up. I'm not saying that all trans sexuals want the other sex's body for sexual reasons, but if they claim gender is involved, its sexism. How do you think doctor's evaluate gender dysphoric kids? "I always wanted to be a girl, I played with dolls as a child, and always acted like a girl."

Lets looks at the DSM-5 diagnosis criteria for gender dysphoria.

"Some people who identify as transgender do experience “gender dysphoria,” a psychiatric diagnosis that refers to the psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity."

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

All of that is sexism. You'll note there are other diagnosis of trans sexualism in the DSM-5. But none of the above stereotypes are required to desire the body of the other sex. If a person was confused by sexism however, they might think that they needed to align their body with the 'gender' they desired to be. There are people out there, especially young people, who believe that because they want to do things we prejudice as belonging to the other sex, that they need to change their body to match so they can do those things without societal rejection.

Sexism is powerful and has made people believe they should stick to certain 'roles' for centuries. There are people out there who believe in sexism, and believe because they do not behave like a normal person of their sex, that changing their body to match that will fix that problem.

Though folks who discuss these issues use terms like "I'm a man" and "you're not a man" casually (meaning that sex based language to describe either sex or gender identity at various times). — LuckyR

Right, its just sexist language when referring to gender. "Trans men are men" if you are referring to men in a gendered way, is incredibly sexist. It implies that there is some role or action that a person can do that makes them a 'man'. If you are saying a trans man is a man by sex, that's not a sexist claim, but one which is provably true or false. Sexism is very powerful, and its 'defeat' has only caused it to retreat and reshape itself into a new term, 'gender'.

In addition, some of the subjective gender markers include changing one's look, obviously including surgery. — LuckyR

To be clear, gender is purely a social expectation that has nothing to do with natural biology. If we said, "All men should get their left toe removed," that's changing your body for gender. There is no biological innate reason a man should get their left toe removed." If a person desires to cut their breasts off to resemble the chest of a man, that's someone trying to emulate sex expectations, not gender expectations of the other sex. That's trans sexual behavior, not trans gender behavior.

Sexism and misogyny

Sexism and misogyny — Malcolm Parry

Misandry too. Lets not be sexist ourselves and think this is only one sided. Also to be fair, sexism is not motivated only by negative aspects. Phiandry and philogyny, or the love of men and women can also be a drive for sexism and a desire to be the other sex.

Misandry too. — Philosophim

I don't think that's an issue. There is one sex that has been discriminated against in history and had to fight long and hard for their rights.

Misandry too.
— Philosophim

I don't think that's an issue. There is one sex that has been discriminated against in history and had to fight long and hard for their rights. — Malcolm Parry

You can be a man and be a misandrist. And there are women who hate men, but may not have the power to do much about it. Hating or loving one sex is irrelevant to the rights of that sex. One does not have to have power to be a misandrist or misogynist.

But maybe I'm missing something. I'm curious to see what other people think. — Philosophim

I think you are missing that genderroles were part of a culture that got us to where we are now. And that every modern society where they are being eroded, seem to be experiencing problems replacing itself with a next generation.

I think you are missing that genderroles were part of a culture that got us to where we are now. — ChatteringMonkey

So did war, ignorance, religion, and many other things that we have learned we can do without and still be successful. Just because something happened to accompany us while we furthered humanity does not mean that it was complicit in our success or needed anymore.

And that every modern society where they are being eroded seem to be experiencing problems replacing itself with a next generation. — ChatteringMonkey

Do you have any proof of this? What seems to be the case isn't the erosion of gender roles, its the enrichment of society vs the cost of having children combined with birth control. Many people opt out of having kids because they value their luxury time more as well. Some men stay at home and take care of the kids now while their wives work, which is an erosion of gender roles. I'm just not seeing evidence that the decision to not have kids is because of the removal of gender roles in marriage.

Do you have any proof of this? What seems to be the case isn't the erosion of gender roles, its the enrichment of society vs the cost of having children combined with birth control. Many people opt out of having kids because they value their luxury time more as well. Some men stay at home and take care of the kids now while their wives work, which is an erosion of gender roles. I'm just not seeing evidence that the decision to not have kids is because of the removal of gender roles in marriage. — Philosophim

There certainly is evidence that the religious have more children. But sure, it's one of those things that is very difficult to isolate from other factors to study it in isolation... still I think it makes sense that it would have an influence. If women have many other possibilities, like say careers, or are otherwise not encouraged to have children, it seems reasonable to presume that they would feel less of a need to have children.

The elevation of gender over sex is social prejudice at best, social sexism at worst. — Philosophim

Well, this is an original idea to forward an anti-transgender argument, but this theory has several holes, beginning with the idea that gender is something artificially “elevated”

Gender is one aspect of identity, and it’s our identity, produced by a brain, that determines how we perceive and react to the world. It’s all we got to go on. To suggest that some part of my body, rather than my brain, should determine who I am, is absurd.

Gender: The non-biological expectations that one or more people have about how a sex should express themselves in public. For example, "Men are expected to wear top hats, women are not." — Philosophim

No, gender is not determined by external expectations, but by biological factors - how the brain functions:

… the existence of brain phenotypes in line with the idea of a brain sexual differentiation seems to be confirmed by the … reported studies, including both cisgender and transgender individuals.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7139786/

Perhaps it is simplistic to say a male transgender person has a male brain, or a female transgender brain has a female brain – but the evidence that transgender brain structure and function are different from their biological (physical) sex is there if you care to investigate it.

From one study:

The observed shift away from a male-typical brain anatomy towards a female-typical one in people who identify as transgender women suggests a possible underlying neuroanatomical correlate for a female gender identity.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

From another:

… results, published in 2013, showed that even before treatment the brain structures of the trans people were more similar in some respects to the brains of their experienced gender than those of their natal gender.

From a study that focused on brain function:

… used functional MRI to examine how 39 prepubertal and 41 adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria responded to androstadienone, an odorous steroid with pheromonelike properties that is known to cause a different response in the hypothalamus of men versus women. They found that the adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria responded much like peers of their experienced gender.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

The question is about primacy of importance in regards to law and culture. Rationally, which is more important to consider? A person's sex, or their gender? — Philosophim

Gender is part of cognitive identity, so definitely gender. Why should “law and culture” force people to be something they are not? In what situations is this justified?

Gender claims are subjective beliefs, not objective facts. — Philosophim

Of course, identity is subjective – it is produced in the brain of the subject. But subjectivity does not mean identity should be disregarded. Indeed, it should prevail. It is one’s lived experience – not an “opinion” - not a "belief" - but a reality.

Looking at gender, gender is a social belief that a sex should express itself a particular way. — Philosophim

No, gender is not a social belief. It is a state produced by a functioning brain, encompassing differences in cognition among individuals, which lead to differences in behavior. Here is one well-researched area that would produce different experiences of reality (and thus different reactions to it):

“You see sex differences in spatial-visualization ability in 2- and 3-month-old infants,” Halpern says. Infant girls respond more readily to faces and begin talking earlier. Boys react earlier in infancy to experimentally induced perceptual discrepancies in their visual environment. In adulthood, women remain more oriented to faces, men to things.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

Because gender is subjective and subject to the whims of an individual or group, — Philosophim

No, gender is not based on a “whim.”

I just can't see any good reason to consider gender as anything more than a prejudiced and sexist social pressure. — Philosophim

But to not recognize the gender that one claims for themselves would be a prejudiced position, and put sexist social pressure on them.

We should seek to minimize gender as anything more than an ignorant and potentially bigoted human opinion about people based on their sex. — Philosophim

Or – we can just accept one’s lived experience that they claim for themselves. Believe them.

In summary, gender/identity should take precedence over the physical attributes of the body. External pressures to be something you are not (which are often based in ignorance) should be discouraged.

Because gender is subjective and subject to the whims of an individual or group, and placing gender over sex in matters of importance matches the definition of sexism, — Philosophim

I’ll bypass most of your OP and just say taking gender into account is not the same thing as “placing gender over sex.”

There’s more to say about your obsession with transgender issues, but I guess that wouldn’t be philosophy.

I would probably agree that there is a degree of sexism in such a statement, were someone to make it, but it isn't a realistic depiction of gender dysphoria. — Mijin

Nicely put.

I’ll quote the great Flight of the Conchords:

All the money that we're making is going to the man
(What man?
Which man?
Who's the man?
When's a man a man?
What makes a man a man?
Am I a man?
Yes, technically I am)

To be clear, gender is purely a social expectation that has nothing to do with natural biology. — Philosophim

This is clearly not true. For 99.7% of people, biological sex and gender match each other.

Boy, this is a great post. Really interesting. I’m going to follow up on some of the reading you linked.

Or maybe I’ll just plagiarize what you’ve written in future discussions.

Boy, this is a great post. Really interesting. — T Clark

Thank you so much!

Or maybe I’ll just plagiarize — T Clark

Be my guest!

No-one says that though. — Mijin

I saw a clip yesterday of a transwoman (i suppose you could say influencer? I'm not sure as the media was second-gen commentary on her clip) claiming that the reason you have to consider her a woman is that she waits for her male partner to come home, and has baked brownies in the mean time.

So people do say that. But its ridiculous, so we should rightly be putting it in the ridiculous category. You make a good point that "gender dysphoria" (i am skeptical, but lets leave that aside) has nothing to do with such a claim. But I then don't know what it would have to do with. Gender appears to be stereotypes. Those are stereotypes. I'm not sure what could cause dysphoria around gender other than a mismatch of behaviour and stereotype (hence my initial comment).

Which leads me to my actual point: it seems to be the case that most trans-presenting people do not have any dysphoria and are playing a game. One that requires sexism and misogyny.

But I then don't know what it would have to do with. Gender appears to be stereotypes. — AmadeusD

Have you read @Questioner’s post above? Here’s one of the things he had to say:

Perhaps it is simplistic to say a male transgender person has a male brain, or a female transgender brain has a female brain – but the evidence that transgender brain structure and function are different from their biological (physical) sex is there if you care to investigate it. — Questioner

The information included in his post puts the lie to just about everything you and @Philosophim have to say on this subject. Maybe you guys will just lay off on your transgender obsession. Probably not.

He's wrong about most of it. He and I have gone back and forth on this many times.

Suffice to say that you making this claim doesn't make it so. I have presented him with ample evidence that the male/female brain claim is a myth, for example - which got ignored. You can probably use the search function if interested. Its in the Transwomen are women thread.

This is one of a few topis that seems to have people A. telling you not to talk about it (or shaming you for it - which is utterly ridiculous) and B. straight-up not engaging in good faith discourse. Some of our best posters such as yourself and Banno do this. Its bizarre. Just absolute non engagement with what's presented.

To be clear, gender is purely a social expectation that has nothing to do with natural biology. If we said, "All men should get their left toe removed," that's changing your body for gender. There is no biological innate reason a man should get their left toe removed." If a person desires to cut their breasts off to resemble the chest of a man, that's someone trying to emulate sex expectations, not gender expectations of the other sex. That's trans sexual behavior, not trans gender behavior

Well, if I say that women wear their hair long, that's a gender (social) norm. Hair is biology (like left toes), yet the choice of how to wear it is social. Same with eyelashes and fingernails and ear piercing. Folks get plastic surgery to defy age. Facial skin is biology, but the choice to eliminate wrinkles is social. Thus it's established that certain manipulations of our biological physicality falls under social (gender) events. The fact that some women's hip area is less ample than the social norm leads to cosmetic surgery to augment that area, even though their hips were perfectly biologically female to begin with. That's not sexual. So a man getting the exact same surgery is also not sexual (is social), by my reckoning.

Gender is one aspect of identity, and it’s our identity, produced by a brain, that determines how we perceive and react to the world. — Questioner

No one is arguing you can't have a sexist identity. You haven't argued that a gender identity isn't sexist.

No, gender is not determined by external expectations, but by biological factors - how the brain functions:

… the existence of brain phenotypes in line with the idea of a brain sexual differentiation seems to be confirmed by the … reported studies, including both cisgender and transgender individuals.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7139786/ — Questioner

You should quote the rest of the conclusion as well:

"However, the relationship between gender behavioural differences and brain dimorphic areas is still not clear, since such differences may be the result not only of anatomical features but also life experiences [34,35,36,37]. Furthermore, the popular explanation that there is a female and a male brain on the base of gender behavioural differences is not supported by a strong empirical background [11], as, for example, men and women share more similarities than differences [38,39,40,41,42,43]. Furthermore, a great variability in behavioural and psychological aspects is shown between genders [44]. Moreover, the size of the brain differences is usually small"

So no, you haven't proven anything. We both also need to be careful how you're defining gender. If gender is defined as a social expectation of behavior by a sex apart from biology, then you need to demonstrate that it is hard wired into the brain. For example, is it hard wired that "Men should wear top hats while women should not?" Of course not. Its just as likely that a society forms that claims the opposite. Which again, is just sexism.

Perhaps it is simplistic to say a male transgender person has a male brain, or a female transgender brain has a female brain – but the evidence that transgender brain structure and function are different from their biological (physical) sex is there if you care to investigate it. — Questioner

I have investigated it. The brain science is still quite nascient. The most important things I consider in any study which claims that transgender brains are different from cis, is if the study includes sexual orientation, and if the person has not been on any medication for transition. This is because male homosexual brains have some resemblence to female brains. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-says-brains-of-gay/

...and if this is not taken into account in trans studies, the gay brains shift the average to conclude, "Trans brains are more female". When sexual orientation is taken into account, there is no discernable difference in the brains of trans vs non-trans males prior to taking medication.

Gender is part of cognitive identity, so definitely gender. Why should “law and culture” force people to be something they are not? In what situations is this justified? — Questioner

I never said the law should force people into identities. I noted that when gender is elevated above sex in matters of culture and law, its sexism. You are free to identify in a sexist way, but we should not elevate a sexist viewpoint over the objective division of sex. So if you think you should be in sex separated spaces because you act, dress, or behave a certain way, that's a sexist viewpoint. Its much better to take an objective viewpoint for legal identity. Man and women can be seen as sexist roles, or they can be seen as objective descriptors of biology. In matters of law, the objective descriptor makes for better laws.

Of course, identity is subjective – it is produced in the brain of the subject. But subjectivity does not mean identity should be disregarded. Indeed, it should prevail. It is one’s lived experience – not an “opinion” - not a "belief" - but a reality. — Questioner

Should prevail? That's a statement, not an explanation. If I have the identity of a murderer, you're saying that should prevail? Everything you do is lived experience. That's not an argument about why gender isn't simply sexism.

No, gender is not a social belief. It is a state produced by a functioning brain, encompassing differences in cognition among individuals, which lead to differences in behavior. Here is one well-researched area that would produce different experiences of reality (and thus different reactions to it):

“You see sex differences in spatial-visualization ability in 2- and 3-month-old infants,” — Questioner

You're conflating 'gender' with 'sex' here. Sex differences are not gender. Gender is "I believe men should wear tank tops, and women shouldn't." Its completely subjective as to how I, another person, or a group of people believe a particular sex should behave in society.

Because gender is subjective and subject to the whims of an individual or group,
— Philosophim

No, gender is not based on a “whim.” — Questioner

Its not based on anything biological. And I can hold a completely different view of how males and females act than you with the same justification you have toward your views. Its just a prejudice.

I just can't see any good reason to consider gender as anything more than a prejudiced and sexist social pressure.
— Philosophim

But to not recognize the gender that one claims for themselves would be a prejudiced position, and put sexist social pressure on them. — Questioner

That statement does not address my points or have any explanation for why you think it is true behind it. You need to address the points I made in the argument explaining why gender is sexist, then demonstrate how it isn't.

Or – we can just accept one’s lived experience that they claim for themselves. Believe them. — Questioner

I believe when people have sexist views. I never said I didn't. And none of us should accept that a sexist outlook should take priority over actual biological differences in sex.

In summary, gender/identity should take precedence over the physical attributes of the body. — Questioner

I see no evidence of this in your points.

Suffice to say that you making this claim doesn't make it so. — AmadeusD

He didn’t just make a claim. Unlike you and @Philosophim, he provided references to evidence. If you want to question his evidence, that would make sense, but all you do is wave your arms.

This is one of a few topis that seems to have people A. telling you not to talk about it (or shaming you for it - which is utterly ridiculous) and B. straight-up not engaging in good faith discourse. Some of our best posters such as yourself and Banno do this. Its bizarre. Just absolute non engagement with what's presented. — AmadeusD

Well, I certainly have never told you not to talk about this. I think it’s fine. And I don’t understand why you would say I’m not arguing in good faith.

Because gender is subjective and subject to the whims of an individual or group, and placing gender over sex in matters of importance matches the definition of sexism,
— Philosophim

I’ll bypass most of your OP and just say taking gender into account is not the same thing as “placing gender over sex.” — T Clark

Thank you for agreeing with me then. Glad you accept the premise of the OP.

There’s more to say about your obsession with transgender issues, but I guess that wouldn’t be philosophy. — T Clark

Correct my little passive aggressive bird. Your bias against me has nothing to do with philosophy or anything intellectual in the slightest.

To be clear, gender is purely a social expectation that has nothing to do with natural biology.
— Philosophim

This is clearly not true. For 99.7% of people, biological sex and gender match each other. — T Clark

Then you clearly did not read the OP. Oh wait, you already said you didn't. Way to go you!

Perhaps it is simplistic to say a male transgender person has a male brain, or a female transgender brain has a female brain – but the evidence that transgender brain structure and function are different from their biological (physical) sex is there if you care to investigate it.
— Questioner

The information included in his post puts the lie to just about everything you and Philosophim have to say on this subject. Maybe you guys will just lay off on your transgender obsession. Probably not. — T Clark

I just replied to his post. I think its customary to allow a rejoinder before declaring victory right?

Well, if I say that women wear their hair long, that's a gender (social) norm. Hair is biology (like left toes), yet the choice of how to wear it is social. — LuckyR

Correct. The definition of gender is how one or more people believe a sex should behave socially. There is nothing innate in being a sex that indicates one should wear their hair short or long, or even that how you wear your hair should have anything to do with your sex. That's gender. That's sexism.

Folks get plastic surgery to defy age. Facial skin is biology, but the choice to eliminate wrinkles is social. — LuckyR

This is not gender. Any sex can get these things done. If you believe only one sex should get them done, then its gender.

Thus it's established that certain manioulations of our biological physicality falls under social (gender) events. — LuckyR

Its if there is a subjective opinion that doing or not doing these things should be encouraged or limited by your sex.

The definition of gender is how one or more people believe a sex should behave socially. — Philosophim

No, that is your definition, and it goes against commonly accepted research.

"Sex" is how you're built. "Gender" is a part of who you are.

According to the American College of Pediatricians:

Although often used interchangeably, the terms sex and gender are not synonyms. According to the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), gender is defined as the “lived role” of male or female, resulting from the interaction of cultural and psychological factors with a person’s biological constitution.

The definition of gender is how one or more people believe a sex should behave socially.
— Philosophim

No, that is your definition, and it goes against commonly accepted research.

"Sex" is how you're built. "Gender" is a part of who you are.

According to the American College of Pediatricians:

Although often used interchangeably, the terms sex and gender are not synonyms. According to the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), gender is defined as the “lived role” of male or female, resulting from the interaction of cultural and psychological factors with a person’s biological constitution. — Questioner

These definitions are complimentary, not contradictory. Mine is the colloquial version of the medical speak below.

"lived role" - Socially constructed expectation of behavior

of male or female - of a person's sex

cultural and psychological factors - subjective opinion from a group of people and the self

a person’s biological constitution - Their sex

Is that all? Do you have anything more to say to my last response?