frank
Do you want to go on to the other SEP article, or have we treated it sufficiently? — Banno
haven't gone into the detail of the section on Combinatorialism as much as we might . — Banno
Metaphysician Undercover
The extension of "Bridgett Bardot" remains Bridgett Bardot, even if she had started a fish shop instead of going into acting. — Banno
Banno
How does that answer the question? I asked you about the difference between "extension" in relation to physical objects, and "extension" in relation to abstract objects. — Metaphysician Undercover
RussellA
This is why we ought not extend the fixedness of the past into the present. Doing this produces a determinist perspective ("perspective" being present), and obscures the truly dynamic nature of the present..........................
If we consider the present to always be a duration of time, we ought to allow that not only does part of the present share the properties of the past (fixed), but we need to allow that part shares the properties of the future (not fixed). This is necessary to allow that a freely willed act, at the present, can interfere with what would otherwise appear to be fixed. — Metaphysician Undercover
We experience the present and have memories of the past. If the present has a duration, then it may well be of the order of Plank’s time, but certainly not much more than that. I observe a truck coming round the corner, which quickly becomes a memory. I can then make a judgement, such that the truck was travelling too fast, but this judgement was made in the present and based on a memory of the past.The reason i am making this distinction is because we experience the present as active, and changing, so we ought not think of it as "fixed".................
"The present" is very difficult because things are always changing, even as we speak. ……………….
Then the statement “there is a truck coming round the corner” is judged to be true, or stated as true, based on that observation which is now past. — Metaphysician Undercover
I see an apple on the table and imagine a yoghurt in the fridge. It is not a contradiction to observe something and imagine a different thing. Similarly, I can see the Eiffel Tower in Paris and imagine the Eiffel Tower in Reno. Neither is this a contradiction.If the Eiffel tower is in Reno, then it is not in Paris. If I believe that the Eiffel Tower is in Paris, then it is implied that I also believe it is impossible that it is in Reno, which is somewhere other than Paris. Therefore to believe that it is possible that it is in Reno, implicitly contradicts my belief that it is in Paris. — Metaphysician Undercover
Metaphysician Undercover
Both the past and present are fixed, in that we can only remember one past, and by the Law of Non-contradiction there can only be one present. Therefore, both the past and present must be static rather than dynamic. — RussellA
If the present has a duration, then it may well be of the order of Plank’s time, but certainly not much more than that. — RussellA
I observe a truck coming round the corner, which quickly becomes a memory. I can then make a judgement, such that the truck was travelling too fast, but this judgement was made in the present and based on a memory of the past. — RussellA
It is not a contradiction to observe something and imagine a different thing. Similarly, I can see the Eiffel Tower in Paris and imagine the Eiffel Tower in Reno. Neither is this a contradiction. — RussellA
RussellA
How can you say that the past is fixed, when what I remember as past is changing all the time? — Metaphysician Undercover
A "judgement" as your example of something which occurs "in the present", takes a lot longer than Plank time. The average human reaction time is 25 one hundredths (,25) of a second. — Metaphysician Undercover
The issue is that you cannot believe that the Eiffel Tower is in Paris, and also believe that it is possibly in Reno, without implied contradiction — Metaphysician Undercover
Metaphysician Undercover
0.25 seconds is a period of time. Similarly, one week is a period of time and one decade is a period of time.
To call 0.25 seconds a present moment in time would be like calling a decade a present moment in time. — RussellA
Richard B
Banno
Richard B
Banno
ButI am interested in your opinion on the following and how you would think Kripke would reply. — Richard B
I'll try explaining this again.Kripke pointed out that if water is H₂O, if they are indeed identical, then necessarily, they are identical. If they are the very same, then they are the very same in every possible world. — Banno
Metaphysician Undercover
He is making a point about the interpretation of modal theorems, such that such equivalences, if true, are necessarily true.
So the question concerning air is misbegotten. — Banno
frank
Am I not also raising a concern about the process of rigid designation as well? — Richard B
Metaphysician Undercover
We're just interested in what our speaker means by it. — frank
Am I not also raising a concern about the process of rigid designation as well? — Richard B
Metaphysician Undercover
Richard B
Banno
Yes, I can see your discomfort. Can we perhaps work on that?However, when we bring in the metaphysical talk of possible worlds and rigid designation, I start to squirm. — Richard B
Richard B
sime
Banno
There are some statements that could not be false, no matter how the things in logical space are arranged. Mathematical and logic truths are amongst these. These are in a relevant sense independent of how things are. These are among the necessary truths. They are true in every state of affairs.1. Saying that "....then this fact about the world is a necessary one" seems incorrect. A fact about the world is not because of the nature of logical structure, but whether a possible state of affairs is true or false. — Richard B
Necessary truths are true in any arrangement of logical space. So if a statement is false, at the very lest, it is not true in every arrangement of logical space. But that doesn't mean that is says nothing. That it is not true that the cat is on the mat does tell us something about how things are arranged in logical space.2. Saying that, "Well, if something is false, it's obviously not necessary true." How can proposition that that says nothing, follow from a proposition that says something? From a proposition that says something about the world, how is it obvious that it implies a proposition that shows logical form but states nothing about the world. — Richard B
Richard B
frank
My main point with this example is if "air" can be non-rigid, then so can "water". But I am open to hear why one would think otherwise. — Richard B
Banno
Not at all sure why you would suppose that. Possible worlds are arrangements of how things might be, in logical space, which is pretty exactly in keeping with the Tractaus....he appears to reify necessity as a worldly fact — Richard B
If you want a reply on this, you are going to have to explain what you are claiming. Are you trying to say something like: "If 'The cat is on the mat' is false (a proposition with sense), how does this imply anything about 'The cat is on the mat or the cat is not on the mat' (a tautology without sense)?" If so, the answer is straightforward: it doesn't imply it in the usual sense. Rather, the tautology is true independently of whether the contingent proposition is true or false. The relationship isn't one of implication but of logical independence—which is precisely the point about necessary truths being "empty" of empirical content.I don't believe you address how a proposition with sense implies something about a proposition without sense? — Richard B
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