Because (some) animals sometimes react to things in a way that resembles what we do (which says little about what we perceive when we do that thing) does not validate the argument that they perceive objects because there is a similar "structure".

At most you could say that some animals react to different environmental cues relevant to certain species-related tendencies.

This does not show that they individuate, discriminate or make attributions to things in a way that resembles our experience.

What gives you what you have is reading into animals what we do in some cases, not others.

Yeah that's fair enough. I'll give Kastrup props for making idealism a topic of debate, but there are other formulations which are more interesting.

You are misunderstanding the point. I'm not saying animals

individuate, discriminate or make attributions to things in a way that resembles our experience. — Manuel

I don't even understand what you mean exactly by "individuate, discriminate or make attributions to things". For example do you think doing those things would require language?

I'm saying that observation of dogs, the animal example I've been using, shows they see much the same environmental features: doors, balls, walls, stairs trees to piss on etc as we do. Their behavior demonstrates this. They don't see a wall where I see a door, or vice versa, otherwise they'd be bumping into walls trying to get outside, and failing to see exists where they are available.

Anyway, the point is very clear to me. If oy disagree then I would like to see a cogent explanation for their behavior towards the things we see in the environment being consistent ours. To be honest I have not been able to understand at all what you objections to this have been.

Dogs (or other animals) do not need language to discriminate, individuate or make attributions to objects. I also, repeatedly have said that they perceive something. The issue here (as I see it) is one of thinking that because animals engage in certain interactions with objects implies shared perceptual phenomenology.

That dogs avoid running into walls or urinate on the trees only implies things like avoiding pain or easing discomfort, etc. But it is precisely when you say that the behavior of a dog in relation to a tree or a door is evidence of a shared structure, you are smuggling in what you are trying to prove: that dogs see balls as balls, or walls as walls (I am explicitly putting aside cognitive content, I am only speaking about objects we refer to as balls or walls).

The burden of proof is not on me to show what other animals think - I don't know what they think or how they interpret the world, that's why there are essays like Nagel's What's It Is Like to Be a Bat?. If you can't say (as I can't) what it's like to me (a human being), how am I in position to say what is it like to be a dog? They avoid pain. That is a reasonable, conservative guess.

Identical behavior does not tell you what is going on inside. The very same evidence that you use to argue that dogs see a "structure' of a ball, is one anyone can use in relation to the behavior of ant in relation to the ball, or fish for that matter.

If you don't understand this, I literally cannot express myself better, but we can't proceed much more.

I have sympathy for the position you are expounding. It's tricky stuff because to discuss it we are already deeply immersed in human framing, possibly smuggling in assumptions.

I'm not overly convinced by the idea that a dog sees a fish just as we do. The phrase "just as we do" seems unproven. Does a dog see a fish? Obviously not: it has no language. It perceives "prey" in some form, perhaps. But does it interact with a conceptual world or an instinctive one? I'd suggest the latter. When we see a fish, do we perceive food, prey, another animal, an allergy threat, or even potential mercury poisoning? I think a dog engages with a fundamentally different world, one that shares the same raw material to some extent, though ours is elaborated and structured by conceptual frameworks and language which transform it entirely. Reducing this to "well, we both see a fish" overlooks critical distinctions and makes assumptions about just what is shared.

Well put! What you are saying closely matches my own intuitions.

It is hard because what we see is so obviously that it is very hard to step out of it.

That dogs avoid running into walls or urinate on the trees only implies things like avoiding pain or easing discomfort, etc. But it is precisely when you say that the behavior of a dog in relation to a tree or a door is evidence of a shared structure, you are smuggling in what you are trying to prove: — Manuel

That's not true, I'm not smuggling anything in, but just making simple observations.. I'm not talking about structures I'm talking about trees. The fact that the dog urinates on trees consistently shows that it consistently sees something I call a tree at the same location I do. When I throw the ball for the dog it watches me intently and when I raise my arm it begins to run anticipating that I will throw the ball. It sees my body and can read the body language. It sees the ball going in the same direction as I see it. If I throw a brick instead of a ball he will not chase it or if he does he will not try to pick it up when he gets close enough to see it is too big for him to pick up. Just as I see it as 'not-to'be-picked-up-by-the dog, so he also see it as not-to-be-picked-up. This consistency demonstrates clearly that the dog and I share a world at least at the most basic level.

I'm not overly convinced by the idea that a dog sees a fish just as we do. The phrase "just as we do" seems unproven. Does a dog see a fish? Obviously not: it has no language. It perceives "prey" in some form, perhaps. But does it interact with a conceptual world or an instinctive one? I'd suggest the latter. — Tom Storm

What you're missing is that the dog undoubtedly sees what we call a fish, because we observe him picking it up and eating it. It is also undeniable that the dog recognizes the fish as food, just as we do, although obviously not in a linguistically mediated way. The salient point is that the dog sees the fish at the same location in space and time as we do, and from that it follows that "something", mind-independent ontic structures which are either fundamentally physical or mental or neutral (it doesn't matter), ensures there is a shared world as perceived. Science tells us that dogs see only in shades of yellow and blue, so of course things are not going to look just the same to a dog as to a human. And when we consider insects, of course the differences could be vast.

As a defender of phenomenology and/or idealism, one point I have to continually re-state is that I don't think this means 'the world is all in the mind' (and that this is what it is often interpreted to mean.) There is a real, external, material world which is described by science. But the mind/observer is not 'out there' as a phenomenal existent among others, and can't be derived from or explained in terms of external phenomenal existents. This means that our grasp of reality, even while objective (or, better, inter-subjective), is still always that of a subject. In that sense, there is no 'mind-independent reality'. But this doesn't mean that the world is dependent on your or my mind. Just that it can never be truly or absolutely objective.

Put another way, I am not saying the world depends on minds. I’m saying that the distinction between mind-independent and mind-dependent is itself a distinction drawn from within experience, and cannot be used to step outside experience altogether.

Where this falls foul of empiricism is the belief that the world is strictly mind-independent, that it exists as it is independently of the mind. Whereas the counter to that is that reality is not something we're outside of or separate from, so this presumed division between mind and world doesn't ultimately hold. (This last is especially suggested by non-dualism, which is more characteristic of Asian than European philosophy.)

Where this falls foul of empiricism is the belief that the world is strictly mind-independent, that it exists as it is independently of the mind. — Wayfarer

The world as perceived is obviously not independent of the perceivers. But it seems obvious there is a "contribution" to what is perceived from a perceiver-independent reality that ensures the possibility of a shared world among perceivers. That "reality" could be mental or physical or neutral in ultimate constitution, and that is a separate question (probably unanswerable).

For my own clarification:

I think we are talking past each other. Now you're talking about trees rather than structures, which is not a distinction I introduced.

The issue remains the same: you're treating anthropomorphic descriptions as if animal behavior shares our phenomenology. I don't believe these descriptions serve to establish what you are claiming. It may be obvious to you, but it isn't for me.

Since this is the case we disagree at a fundamental level, so, I think it's best to move on. You can have a final say.

The issue remains the same: you're treating anthropomorphic descriptions as if animal behavior shares our phenomenology. — Manuel

No I'm not and that's not what I've been saying at all. Anyway I think I've reached the point of diminishing returns so I'm happy to leave it where it is.

The world as perceived…. — Janus

…the world (as perceived), is presupposed, and from such temporal antecedence….

…..is obviously not independent of the perceivers. — Janus

….the independence of it with respect to perceivers, is given necessarily. That which wasn’t already there (and is so for whatever reason and in whatever manner), cannot be something there (merely from its effect on some form of sensibility).

The world as perceived not independent of perceivers, is far too close to tautological meaninglessness, insofar as perception is not independent of perceivers.

The world (…) is independent of perceivers….is true;
The perceived (…) is independent of perceivers….is false;
The world (perceived) is independent of perceivers….is true;
The perceived (world) is independent of perceivers….is false.

On the other hand, insofar as that which is perceived necessarily exists given its effect on sensibility, to then grant such existence is obviously not independent of perceivers, says far too much with respect to both perceiver and perceived, for the simple reason existence has nothing to do with perception, but is only the necessary condition for its possibility. Whatever the relation between existence as such, and the form of its manifestation in things, which just is that necessary condition, occurs further intellectually/rationally downstream than mere sensation.

Is time just some overblown metaphysical concept, or is it something which seldom receives proper attention.
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But it seems obvious there is a "contribution" to what is perceived from a perceiver-independent reality that ensures the possibility of a shared world among perceivers. — Janus

…from a perceiver-independent reality contradicts the obviously not independent of the perceivers.

The contribution to what is perceived, just is whatever is perceived. But it does not follow, given sufficient distinctions in species-specific intellectual capacities, worldly contributions to perceptions of one species have any apodeitic commonality with worldly contributions of another, for granting such certainty is tantamount to equating rational intellect with mere instinct.
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I had a JRT, I was her one and only human her entire life. For 18 years she was a job-dog, a hiking partner, a pillow thief. Every once in awhile, when I said something to her, she’d tilt her head in that oh-so-cute sorta way, and it occurred to me…she’s wondering what I meant. Only after a few of those, I began to think maybe she was wondering….WTF am I supposed to do that??? There’s no way to tell, from a mere tilt of the head, whether the confusion it suggested belonged to her because of her, or to her because of me. The point being, not the confusion, which may not have even been, but the possibility of correcting it, which may not have even been necessary.

Some nature show tells me aspen trees, given their interconnectedness, correspond according to a root system. Then I try to imagine trees talking to each other, and I get nothing. But I cannot say they don’t talk to each other, only that I can’t imagine how they do. Or, they really don’t and some other natural condition gives that appearance. I mean, a chemical injected in one tree showed up in another, miles away. If I deny anthropomorphism, trees are just trees and anything that connected will interact naturally, I’m not any part of it and therefore shouldn’t get all prophetic over it.

My New Year’s resolution…don’t bug so much.

Wish me luck?

Insofar as I could understand it, I think I agree with most of what you say there, and I think disagreement often hinges on an alternative turn of phase or two.

As to JRTs and dogs in general, I shared a life with two of the former for 15-16 years until they died, and now with two cattle-type dogs. When they tilt their heads like that they are wondering what the sounds or the gestures we are making signify―we can read their body language, and they ours since they are not so different from us. Go with your intuitions and don't overthink it.

You don't bug me, so no need for that New Year's resolution. I do wish you luck in whatever other tasks you may have set yourself, though.

….whatever other tasks you may have set yourself…. — Janus

I thought about applying some pure reason to this universal consciousness idea, but….turns out…it’s too much like aspens communicating with each other: cool idea but without any possibility of obtaining certainty. And without that possibility, it is then commonly called a waste of time, makes no difference whether true or not, which is synonymous with being irrelevant.

The common rejoinder then becomes…yeah, but it’s fun to play with, right? But no, it isn’t, if it follows that your consciousness has anything whatsoever, in any way, shape or form, to do with mine, which seems plausible given its ground as a universal condition. I summarily reject your consciousness as having anything at all to do with mine, simple as that. Easy to see that if I reject yours, I must also reject anyone else’s, which is to reject every instance of it except my own, which just is to reject the universality of it.
(BOOM!!!)

Or, how about this: is it just me or is there a teeth-grinding contradiction in “extrinsic appearance of inner experience”? Have we not yet come to grips with the certainty that no experience is ever of appearances on the one hand, and no experience is itself an appearance, on the other?

Even the thread title implies an inconsistency, in that the strictly metaphysical doctrine of idealism as such concerns itself only with the internal machinations of human subjects, for which, regarding the being of external things in general, there is not the least import. Descartes may be forgiven for labeling internal machinations/external things in general as different substances, with its accompanying ontological implications, as long as he is credited as first to demonstrate the necessity for there being such a difference in the first place, and in which ontology as such falls aside.
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….disagreement often hinges on an alternative turn of phase or two. — Janus

True enough, for folks like us. On higher levels, alternative turns of phrase lead to completely different philosophies, in which case the philosopher’s alternative conceptualizations revert to the Everydayman philosophiser accepting them, which then very well could be his mere misunderstanding.

Like, me, and, universal consciousness. Extrinsic appearance.

And those thinking Kant a phenomenologist. (Sigh)

The common rejoinder then becomes…yeah, but it’s fun to play with, right? But no, it isn’t, if it follows that your consciousness has anything whatsoever, in any way, shape or form, to do with mine, which seems plausible given its ground as a universal condition. I summarily reject your consciousness as having anything at all to do with mine, simple as that. Easy to see that if I reject yours, I must also reject anyone else’s, which is to reject every instance of it except my own, which just is to reject the universality of it. — Mww

Are you rejecting the existence of other consciousnesses or just the idea that they have any actual connection with yours, as distinct from merely a similar constitution to yours? Kant would seem to espouse the latter, while Schopenhauer would seem to espouse the former. Kastrup follows Schopenhauer in saying that we do know something of the noumenon in that we are instances of it, and in that we know ourselves both form the outside, as manifest entities and form the inside via introspection.

That said, he doesn't claim that we know for sure what the nature of the noumenon is; he says that he sees no reason why evolved earth monkeys such as ourselves should be able to know with certainty the ultimate nature of reality. He says instead, that the something we do know of the noumenon via inner experience allows us to make educated guesses as to its nature, but we can never be sure those guesses are true.

Personally, I'm not convinced that consciousness is universal and fundamental, but as I've said many times, I think that any coherent ontological idealism cannot do without universal consciousness as a substitute for actual existents, to explain the obvious fact that we all perceive the same things at particular spatiotemporal locations.

Or, how about this: is it just me or is there a teeth-grinding contradiction in “extrinsic appearance of inner experience”? Have we not yet come to grips with the certainty that no experience is ever of appearances on the one hand, and no experience is itself an appearance, on the other? — Mww

So, experiences are of things not appearances? And experiences are not appearances but experiences of what appears? Language gets tricky in these kinds of matters.

True enough, for folks like us. On higher levels, alternative turns of phrase lead to completely different philosophies, in which case the philosopher’s alternative conceptualizations revert to the Everydayman philosophiser accepting them, which then very well could be his mere misunderstanding.

Like, me, and, universal consciousness. Extrinsic appearance.

And those thinking Kant a phenomenologist. (Sigh) — Mww

By "higher" I take it you refer to professional philosophers? I don't think their insight is necessarily any greater just on account of their more elaborate and systematic grasp of philosophical systems (except of course their insight into those systems). The basic ideas that philosophical systems elaborate are quite simple and are part of the common currency of "Everydayman" in my view.

I've been reading a study by Iain McGilchrist calle The Master and His Emissary that elaborates on the findings of studies investigating the differences between right and left hemispheres. I'm on board with the idea that we have two modes of attention and understanding. The more diffuse, holistic, synthetic and metaphorical understanding being the function of the right hemisphere and the more focused, reductive, analytical and literal understanding being the function of the left.

We need both, but McGilchrist thinks the right is the master and the left the emissary. He also thinks that there have been three periods in human history where the left came to dominate, and that since the Enlightenment we are in one of those periods. He think the instrumental nature of left hemisphere thinking is largely the cause of the terrible, dire situation humanity finds itself in today.

Are you rejecting the existence of other consciousnesses or just the idea that they have any actual connection with yours, as distinct from merely a similar constitution to yours? — Janus

I have no warrant for rejecting the validity, or indeed even the constitution, of resident consciousness in other human subjects, but I am perfectly within my justifications for denying, a priori, if there should be such consciousness in other subjects, the influence of it beyond its own range.

The point was, that the universality principle which holds for each and every instance of a particular, re: human subjective consciousness, is not the universality principle which holds for each and every possible objective condition in general. In other words, the universality of consciousness is one thing, but universal consciousness is quite another. The former the negation of which is contradictory, the latter the affirmation of which is impossible. All of which reduces to….it’s fine to say everyone has his own consciousness, but the possibility of such truth cannot stand as sufficient ground for saying consciousness is universal.
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Kastrup follows Schopenhauer in saying that we do know something of the noumenon in that we are instances of it….. — Janus

This is why I let three pages here go by without commenting: I don’t know Kastrup at all, so I have no reason to think he follows Schopenhauer. But I do know Schopenhauer, and he doesn’t so much favor the knowledge of noumena as he does the knowledge of the Kantian ding an sich. So if Kastrup says Schopenhauer says we know something of the noumena because we are instances of it, he is in utter and complete conflict with Kant, who was the originator of the modern version of both noumena and ding an sich, and possibly in some conflict with Schopenhauer in that the latter only concerns himself with the fact Kant disavows any possible knowledge of the thing-in-itself, which Schopenhauer argues we certainly do, iff the thing-in-itself is represented as will, which has nothing to do with noumena in the Kantian sense at all.

And here, of course, is what you were talking about with that alternative turn of phrase. Kastrup and Schopenhauer apparently both treat noumena differently than Kant, and maybe ever differently than each other. But regardless of all that, it amazes me to no end, how it is even possible to suggest we are instances of noumena in the first place, without, first, representing the concept outside its original definition, and second, accepting the newly represented concept as having some sufficient form of additional explanatory power.
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….in that we know ourselves both form the outside, as manifest entities and form the inside via introspection. — Janus

So the argument for sufficient explanatory power resides in the notion we know ourselves in two different forms of ourselves. Which is true enough, insofar as we know ourselves as both subject and object. But these are different kinds of knowledge, re: empirical/a priori, originating under different conditions, re: theoretical/speculative, and are not connected in any way with each other except transcendentally, for the belonging of both to a single consciousness.

None of which is sufficient reason to suggest we humans are instances of noumena, insofar as the very notion of noumena in its original Enlightenment sense, has no possibility of ever having an object subsumed under the conception of it.

Again, I’m not familiar with the preemptive conditions necessary in Kastrup, that facilitates the suggestion of a possibility in his philosophy that has been established as impossible in its predecessor.
—————-

So, experiences are of things not appearances? And experiences are not appearances but experiences of what appears? Language gets tricky in these kinds of matters. — Janus

Yes, language is tricky, but here I think it’s more a matter of systemic procedure. In short, though, no, experience is not of things or of appearances; experience is of representations of appearances, and appearances are the effect of things on sensibility. You could get away with saying experience is of phenomena, which is a representation of that which caused sensation, sensation being whatever affect the appearance of a thing has. Technically, in theoretical constructions, more is required for experience than mere phenomena, but it isn’t really wrong to begin with it. It’s like…you can’t get to the conclusion of a scientific theory from mere observation, and you can’t get to the conclusion of a hypothetical judgement with only a major premise.

And, correct, experiences are not appearances; one is the temporally/methodically opposed extreme of the other. For human intelligence in its empirical domain, there is nothing for it before the not-known of appearance, and there is nothing for it after the known of experience.

The correspondence of the unknown appearance, to the known experience, through representation, depends exclusively on relations prescribed by the system itself (however metaphysically speculative that may be) and therein resides the commonality between various instances of that system in separate human subjects. It never was the contribution of the thing; it was the contribution of the system to which the thing (“…the undetermined object of empirical intuition….”) is given, which is functionally identical for all otherwise rationally-capable humans.

If an object is as round for you as it is for me, it does not follow it is round because of the object, which may only possibly be the case, but because your system and my system are so much alike yours tells you the object is round and mine tells me the object is round, which is necessarily the case. It is impossible to determine roundness from the object alone, but can only be determined from the effect the object has. We are supported in this, for the roundness of objects for us with our intelligence, does not necessarily hold for forms of intelligence in which roundness is impossible for us to be acquainted. If the object was indeed round in itself, and the same object was given to any other kind of intelligence it would necessarily be round for that intelligence as well as our own, which is something impossible for us to know.

Things that don’t appear to sensibility cannot be known by means of the system, but can be inferred from within the system;
Things that are inferred from within the system may never be given as appearances to the system, hence may never be known by means of the system, but that is NOT to deny their existence;
Things that are inferred may never be appearances, hence may never be known by means of the system, and that IS to deny their reality.

Inference implies the proper use of logic. But human intelligence is prone to mere thought, which is a use of logic in form but not necessarily in accordance with rules of proper inference. In other words, as I’m sure you’re aware, we can think whatever we want. Carrying these threads out to their conclusion is found the absurdity of proclaiming humans as instances of noumena, or asserting the roundness of things to a fish, unless the rules themselves are changed. And if the rules change, that which the rules governed must also change….so how in the HELL would the idea that humans are instances of noumena ever have been formed in the first place?
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I'm on board with the idea that we have two modes of attention and understanding. — Janus

I’m with you. I’ve always been a proponent of the intrinsic human dualistic nature, so would you also admit to being one? Maybe you’re of the opinion that being on board with an idea, isn’t the same as being a proponent of what the idea suggests. Or maybe being dualistic in some aspects of human nature is not to be dualistic in toto. What say you?

I’m also with you…or him anyway…regarding the instrumental nature of left hemisphere, but I’m not so sure about it being the causal condition of all that bad stuff.

But then…there’s today’s major headline…..(shrug)

if Kastrup says Schopenhauer says we know something of the noumena because we are instances of it, he is in utter and complete conflict with Kant, who was the originator of the modern version of both noumena and ding an sich, and possibly in some conflict with Schopenhauer in that the latter only concerns himself with the fact Kant disavows any possible knowledge of the thing-in-itself, which Schopenhauer argues we certainly do, iff the thing-in-itself is represented as will, which has nothing to do with noumena in the Kantian sense at all. — Mww

I don’t think he does. I have Kastrup’s book Decoding Schopenhauer’s Metaphysics, and he’s very careful not to misrepresent. Kastrup isn’t saying that Schopenhauer overturns Kant by gaining theoretical knowledge of noumena. Schopenhauer accepts Kant’s critique of object-knowledge, but not Kant’s assumption that all knowledge must be objectifying. Will is not a noumenon in the Kantian sense, nor an object behind appearances, but what is disclosed in immediate self-awareness prior to representation. The conflict with Kant is therefore deliberate and principled, not a confusion — and Kastrup’s reading tracks this distinction rather carefully.

I'm not very familiar with Kastrup's philosophy, but in one of interviews (I think with Curt Jaimungal) he says that we know something of the noumen (sic) via introspection. He refers to it as consciousness not will. From my own reading of Kant (admittedly years ago) I don't see a coherent distinction between the duality of thing (for us) and thing in itself and the duality of phenomena (things for us) and noumena (things in themselves).

if Kastrup says Schopenhauer says….
— Mww

I don’t think he does. — Wayfarer

Ok, good to know.

Will is not a noumenon in the Kantian sense, nor an object behind appearances, but what is disclosed in immediate self-awareness prior to representation — Wayfarer

And this is what Kastrup says? Or what Kastrup says Schopenhauer says? I’d agree will is not noumena, but would argue S says will is that thing-in-itself impossible NOT to know. Which is fine for him to say, but it is still in direct conflict with Kant. Be that as it may, of course; the thread title doesn’t implicate Kant anyway.

As a matter of interest, though, I wonder how will, being that which is disclosed in immediate self-awareness prior to representation, connects itself to “world”. As in….World as Will and Representation, 1844.

Be that as it may, of course; the thread title doesn’t implicate Kant anyway. — Mww

I don't mind who gets implicated, as long as it's interesting. :wink:

A question out of curiosity: do you have any views on the idea that certain spiritual states or "higher consciousness", might allow direct (whether partial or complete) access to noumena?

And this is what Kastrup says? Or what Kastrup says Schopenhauer says? — Mww

Difficult to say without referring to the book.

I asked my friend Chuck about where Schopenhauer differs with Kant on knowledge of the self. The response:

“For Immanuel Kant, the self appears in two fundamentally different ways:

1. Empirical self:
• The self as it appears in inner sense
• A sequence of mental states in time
• Fully phenomenal, subject to causality


2. Transcendental self (the “I think”)
• The condition of the unity of experience
• Not an object, not knowable, not describable
• A necessary function, not a thing

Kant insists that we have no knowledge whatsoever of the self as it is in itself. Even inner sense gives us only appearances. The noumenal self is strictly unknowable.

This is where Schopenhauer parts company. Schopenhauer’s core claim: we know ourselves twice

For Schopenhauer, the self is given in two irreducibly different ways:

(a) As representation

• I know myself as an object in the world
• As a body in space, with mental states in time
• Governed by causality, like everything else

This much Schopenhauer accepts straight from Kant.

(b) As will

• I know myself immediately as willing
• Not by observation, inference, or representation
• But through lived striving, desire, effort, pain

This second access is non-representational. It is not knowledge of something, but by being something.”

Much of this is elaborated by later phenomenology and existentialism (particularly Sartre).

if Kastrup says Schopenhauer says….
— Mww

I don’t think he does. — Wayfarer


Ok, good to know. — Mww

I don't know if Kastrup says Schopenhauer says, but he most definitely did say in the interview I mentioned that he thinks we have access to the noumenon via introspection.

Also I'd be interested if you can provide a citation from Kant where he explicitly says that the noumenon is not the thing in itself., and/ or if you could provide a coherent distinction between the two concepts. I can see a distinction between things in themselves and the noumenon because things in themselves are for Kant either real things or just kind of formal placeholders. But Schopenhauer rejects things in themselves and collapses the idea to the thing in self. If the noumenon cannot be multiple, then the term noumena, which suggests plurality (as with phenomenon and phenomena) is incoherent.

Hmmm. I guess my view would be that I don’t have one? I can’t make positive judgements with respect to spiritual states or higher consciousness, insofar as I have no idea what either of them might be like, so their relation to noumena would be impossible for me to describe.

On the other hand, given what I understand of noumena, irrespective of spiritual states and higher consciousness, there is no possibility of accessing noumena at all. Even so, that is not to say they are impossible, from which follows access to them is not impossible, from which follows given sufficient means, they might actually be accessible. Just…you know…not by humans, iff humans really do have the type of intelligence that informs both of the origin of them, and of the impossibility of access to them because of it.

Still, even if we don’t actually have the type of intelligence from which noumena as we think of them originate, that in itself is not sufficient reason for permitting spiritual states and higher consciousness to have access to them. Even those would have to be in some form of intelligence so different from ours we still wouldn’t have access, insofar as we wouldn’t understand how some other intelligence works.

The whole point of the critique of pure reason: overloading the system beyond its legitimate bounds will never get us where we want to go.
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Interesting what Chuck says. Thanks.

I can do that. It’ll be here by the time you get back tomorrow.

Thanks. :up: :up:

Some background:
….300 years ago, physical science, while no longer in its infancy, was nonetheless still a toddler, and of more significance than what it’s done is what it hasn’t, the foremost of which is to dislodge Greek logic from its pinnacle of pure human thought;
….Kant was the chair of metaphysics and logic, of the Greek variety necessarily, from which it is reasonable to presume he must ground his original metaphysical thesis in the established logic he himself taught, even in the face of the as-yet unrealized enormous power of physical science;
….in Greek logic, the prime considerations are identity and contradiction: this is only this and never that. In Kantian duality conditioned by identity and contradiction there is no need of the excluded middle, but what is required are those conditions by which it is provable this is indeed only this and never that, which is accomplished by the mere definition. In a brand new philosophical structure having no procedural precedent whatsoever, it is simply a matter of validating a conception by defining what it’s supposed to do (A727/B755).
….the reader should always guard himself against putting words into Kant’s mouth, speaking for himself but calling it Kant. While Kant admits to constructing merely a theory, and acknowledges there is nothing to prove his theory is indeed the case, and recognizing the absolute necessity in sometimes leaving well-enough-alone, re: dismissing infinite regress as theoretically permissible by admitting there is that for which explanation is more confusing than beneficial (A496/B54), it remains internally consistent and logically united, which is all a theory is ever meant to be.
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Some groundwork:
….when Kant says his brand new metaphysics is complete, he means he’s given you everything you need to follow along, from the names of the faculties required to perform tasks, the names of the tasks required for the system to function, and their relation to each other and to the whole;
….beginning with a logical ground, coupled with specificity in definitions of terms, progressing through purposeful methodology, ending in a complete prescriptive intellectual system, results in a paradigm shift in philosophy itself. One can now take it or leave it, but he is not rationally justified in changing it.
….for Kant, in his speculative metaphysics, external things are given, such that no ontological conditions need be considered, insofar as what we think about and what we deem ourselves as having knowledge of as experience, is far less important than the method by which thought and knowledge are even possible in the first place;
….Kant’s system is in effect for each and every perception, every single one of them, ever and always, on the one hand, and congruently for each and every instance of pure thought on the other. The system cannot be turned on and off, it is a constant companion of the otherwise rational intellect, the fundamental condition of humanity in general. Hence the complexity of the philosophy itself, in accounting for how all that works, and why it should be that way;
…the Kantian system will not work for those thinkers for whom the dualistic nature of human cognition is indefensible, or downright wrong. One must acquiesce to human cognitive dualism, or stand aside from Kantian metaphysics.

Now, return to your seats ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls; the shows about to begin.

(OOOO!!! Aaron Copeland, aka, Emerson Lake and Palmer:
“Welcome back my friends
to the show that never ends.
We’re so glad you could attend
Come inside, come inside.

Come inside, the show's about to start
Guaranteed to blow your head apart
Rest assured you'll get your money's worth
The greatest show in Heaven, Hell, or Earth
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What's pertinent here, then, is the term noumenon or noumena, already given in Greek logic, the modern version only so for statements regarding, not of what it is as that was left unchanged from the Greek, but its origin, its validity and the placement in the new system it may or may not occupy;
….understanding is the faculty of thought, thought is represented in conception, conception is the spontaneity of thinking;
….I can think whatever I please (fn, Bxxvi), understanding being the faculty of thought, understanding then, is the origin of thinking whatever I please;
….a problem with thinking whatever I please, a problem with understanding being the origin of any thought whatsoever, is that understanding has no limit imposed on itself by itself. (A238/B297)
….before anyone objects, that understanding is regulated by rules of logic, it must be remembered understanding the faculty (the origin of conceptions) is not understanding the cognitive activity (the synthesis or conjoining of conceptions to each other). The faculty understanding is not under the rules of logic, these belonging to judgement, which informs of the correctness of synthesis but not of the spontaneous origin of conceptions synthesized;
….because it is not contradictory for understanding to merely originate conceptions, it is perfectly warranted to originate any conception it can think, any conception which arises spontaneously from it, is legitimate merely from being thought;
….there is nonetheless a control for understanding; it is reason, which has nothing to do with experience (A302/B359).
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….the standing definition of noumenon, established by the Greeks and left undisturbed in Kant, is simply that object of thought. Period. No more, no less. An object of thought in Kant, however, is a conception, from which follows noumena in Kant is merely conception. Period. No more, no less.
….in the Kantian system, conceptions in general are necessary but conception alone is useless. To think a conception, to have the spontaneous origin of one given, signals an end in itself (thoughts without content are empty, A51/B75), insofar as there is nothing to conjoin to a single conception, a singular instance of spontaneous thought, thus it is that noumena is an empty conception;
….an empty conception such as this, while valid and non-contradictory, is therefore called noumena represented in a negative sense, meaning to indicate that conception representing a thing, not a thing of sensible intuition which is already called phenomenon, but a thing of thought alone for which there is no intuition of any kind at all. (The faculty of thought does not intuit, the faculty of intuition does not think. A52/B76, this is this and not that, a fundamental ground of dualistic transcendental philosophy)

But….why?
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…there is no why, or, any why makes no difference with respect to any other why. Kant used mathematics to prove the possibility and validity of synthetic a priori cognitions, and by the same token used noumena to prove understanding can think whatever it wants, and by association I can think whatever I please. He would have been logically inconsistent and his metaphysics would not be complete, if he proclaims I can think whatever I please, then not present a worthless example as easily as the worthwhile, of doing it;
….so the why understanding does its thing having been said, that being just because it can, still leaves the why of the uselessness of the conception itself, other than the fact it is a singular thought, which reduces to….why is it only a single thought, and, why does it follow that because it is a single thought it is unknowable;
….understanding is the source of conceptions, thought is the synthesis of conceptions. To synthesize conceptions presupposes a relation of separate instances of them, from which follows that in understanding….more correctly judgement, most correctly imagination….to synthesize conceptions, it must seek from itself through spontaneity of thought, or from consciousness through the collection of all antecedent cognitions, those conceptions to be conjoined;
…any synthesis of conceptions in understanding is for the express purpose of cognizing empirical objects; there is no other use of understanding in its empirical sense except experience (A237/B296);
….given that understanding is for the express use for experience, any conceptions imagination uses in its synthesis towards cognition of things of experience must themselves be empirical conceptions;
….that to which all empirical conceptions point, is sensibility, insofar as all empirical conditions whatsoever, arise externally from and are given to the system through the senses;
…the origin of those necessary conditions for the empirical understanding of existent things by means of the cognition of their representations, then, is intuition, from which follows that which imagination synthesizes with conceptions in understanding, must come from intuition;
(To shorten it up, I leave out the origin of phenomena, which represents the synthesis of conceptions in intuition, and thereby the separation of aesthetic sensibility from logical understanding)
…but for noumena, again in its negative sense, originating not externally and given to the senses, but spontaneously arising from thought alone, there is no phenomenal representation from which imagination in understanding uses in its synthesis of conceptions into a cognition;
…hence, noumena remain an empty conception, meaning there are no intuitions to conjoin with it, and for which the express purpose of understanding for the possibility of experience, is therefore denied to it.
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….a citation from Kant where he explicitly says that the noumenon is not the thing in itself…. — Janus

….there isn’t one, but the reader’s sufficient familiarity with the thesis as a whole can grasp the fact Kant wants….actually needs….it to be understood they are nowhere near the same. In fact, they cannot be the same and have the text maintain its accordance with established logic;
….sufficient familiarity looks like, Kant specifically states the understanding treats noumena as it treats the thing it itself (A255/B310), insofar as they both originate as single conceptions, meaning neither of them have conceptions subsumed under them, meaning neither of them relate to cognizable things. Just understanding once more thinking whatever it wants, the difference here is, the thing in itself, while not cognizable as such, still has validity because of what it is not;
….the fact noumena represents things that cannot be cognize says nothing about the things that can, and noumena cannot because they lack intuition, they lack intuition because there is nothing given to sensibility relating noumena to the pure forms of intuition, space and time;
….that which can be cognized, then, does have associated intuition, which then requires an exposition for the possibility of intuition;
….for the possibility of intuition is the necessity of an external object given to the senses, which is called a undetermined object of empirical intuition (A20/B34), or, an appearance in the sense of being presented to, as opposed to looking-like. Appearing to, not appearing as;
….all well and good, but the thing that appears was at some time that same thing which didn’t, or hasn’t, or won’t, appear, in which case it is nonetheless an object, just that object having no effect of he senes, or, which is the same thing, isn’t an appearance;
….but the thing given must be distinguished as to its causality, either it is given merely from being perceived, or, it is given because it was already a real, physical existent, for otherwise we are forced to affirm the appearance of something without that which appears (Bxxvi), the thing…without the thing, the thing now…the thing before now;
….it is much more rationally determinable, and much less potentially contradictory, to grant the thing given to sensibility was an already real, physical existent, which still begs the question as to what it was before became an appearance, which is for the understanding alone to discover;
….understanding thinks its conceptions, therefore to think the thing before appearance, to think the conception and represent it as the thing-in-itself, is a perfectly legitimate activity of understanding in its transcendental sense, meaning thought with respect to all cognitions in general, not just this or that particular cognition.
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…..provide a coherent distinction between the two concepts. I can see a distinction between things in themselves and the noumenon…. — Janus

Noumenon and thing-in-itself are both objects of thought, neither are appearances to sensibility, therefore neither are knowable through discursive cognition (A260/B315);
Noumena are not knowable because they have no intuition, they have no intuition because, as an object of thought, there is nothing to give to sensibility to intuit in any time;
The thing in itself is unknowable because it has no intuition, it has no intuition because as an object of thought, the thing-in-itself is not given to sensibility to intuit at any time, but there is a change of state through one time, wherein the thing-in-itself as conception becomes the thing of existence, and that is what appears;
That thing-in-self, upon being subjected to sensibility as an appearance hence no longer in itself, then becomes experience, its representation resides in consciousness, therefore does not revert back to being in itself when not perceived, but we can still think of it as it was when it was a thing-in-itself, only now it is thought as a thing in general. Discursive thought from conception becomes transcendental thought from an idea.

My version of coherence, while leaving out a lot of detail.

Thanks for asking. Hope I didn’t disappoint. Got questions, ask.

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Thanks for your great effort. There is a lot there and I'm running out of time today so I will read through and if I have time select bits that seem to warrant comment or need clarification.

….the fact noumena represents things that cannot be cognize says nothing about the things that can, and noumena cannot because they lack intuition, they lack intuition because there is nothing given to sensibility relating noumena to the pure forms of intuition, space and time;
….that which can be cognized, then, does have associated intuition, which then requires an exposition for the possibility of intuition;
….for the possibility of intuition is the necessity of an external object given to the senses, which is called a undetermined object of empirical intuition (A20/B34), or, an appearance in the sense of being presented to, as opposed to looking-like. Appearing to, not appearing as; — Mww

This seems to capture what I was alluding to. Noumena cannot be cognized, whereas things in themselves can be cognized, only not as they are in themselves. That said Noumena" suggests plurality. The term "thing in itself" has an ambiguity about it―it could refer to the thing which appears to us and is represented as a phenomenon or it could refer to the perceptually unknowable "whole" which Schopenhauer posits as the singular noumenon. Since the unknowable whole cannot be cognized, then it seems it might count as noumenal.

That's all I've time for now. (it is 8.29AM here in Australia).

PS: I realized I left a bracket off the quote from you which means you probably were not alerted to my response. I just edited this a little, and I think I have no more to say at the moment. If you want to respond I will be interested to read.
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That's a lot to get one's head around, thank you.

Noumenon and thing-in-itself are both objects of thought, neither are appearances to sensibility, therefore neither are knowable through discursive cognition (A260/B315);
Noumena are not knowable because they have no intuition, they have no intuition because, as an object of thought, there is nothing to give to sensibility to intuit in any time;
The thing in itself is unknowable because it has no intuition, it has no intuition because as an object of thought, the thing-in-itself is not given to sensibility to intuit at any time, but there is a change of state through one time, wherein the thing-in-itself as conception becomes the thing of existence, and that is what appears;
That thing-in-self, upon being subjected to sensibility as an appearance hence no longer in itself, then becomes experience, its representation resides in consciousness, therefore does not revert back to being in itself when not perceived, but we can still think of it as it was when it was a thing-in-itself, only now it is thought as a thing in general. Discursive thought from conception becomes transcendental thought from an idea. — Mww

This may be a naive question, but it sometimes seems to me that noumena represent a compromise between direct realism and idealism. It’s as if Kant doesn’t want to be a full-blown idealist and therefore argues that there must be things-in-themselves which are unknowable, and what we recognise is the product of our senses and cognitive apparatus.

Note - fixed syntax