Obviously for me to label it red, I must know what "red" means. — Hanover

So in order to know what "red" means, you must already know what sort of things are red. Yet to know which things are red, you must know what "red" means.

What do you make of this puzzle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO8UVebuA0g&t=4s — Sam26

But she was there. Why shouldn't she remember what happened? Presuming that the experiences were disjointed, why should she not remember them as "disembodied"? In putting the memories together, why not recall them from a different vantage?

It's just not enough. But your questioning what would be enough is fair.

Just as a point of interest, this really has nothing to do with religion (I know you're not saying it does), although people do use it to bolster religious belief. I find that if one looks at as many of these testimonials as I have (over 3500), and I've also talked with many who have had the experience, one cannot help but to conclude that not only are people wrong about their religious beliefs, but that these experiences tell us something very different about reality.

The problem with what you've said Banno is that people are seeing the same things. People are not only describing an alternate reality, but they also give accurate information about what was happening around their bodies. How does this take place in the example video I gave above when the brain has no measurable activity and has been drained of blood, and the heart has been stopped. She sees herself from a place above the operating table and is able to describe not only what happened to her in detail, but also describe the conversations. This is corroborated by doctors and nurses who were there.

You watched that whole video.

How does this take place in the example video I gave above when the brain has no measurable activity and has been drained of blood, and the heart has been stopped. — Sam26

It's a legitimate question. But another legitimate question is how a disembodied mind might see, hear, smell and form memories.

Which is the harder question?

No, I admit I did not. I'm procrastinating, and that was a step too far.

That's a fair question, but regardless of our inability to explain how a mind might work to explain the experience, there are too many things that speak to it being the case. We can't explain how or why we have dreams, or other experiences, but that doesn't mean the experiences aren't real.

Doesn't the atheistic monist have to deal with the same question of when consciousness (i.e. that something extra) begins and ends during a life cycle? — Hanover

I'm thinking everyone does (a/theist mon/dualist)... I don't think anyone have a really comprehensive understanding of mind (per se). That said, there are simple characteristics we do know.

Some emerging research:

• Mind-reading program translates brain activity into words (Ian Sample; The Guardian; Jan 2012)
• Scientists Use Brain Waves To Eavesdrop On What We Hear (Peter Murray; Singularity Hub; from the Public Library of Science (PLoS) Biology; Feb 2012)
• Neural Decoding of Visual Imagery During Sleep (Horikawa, Tamaki, Miyawaki, Kamitani; Science AAAS; Apr 2013)
• Researcher controls colleague’s motions in 1st human brain-to-brain interface (Rajesh Rao, Andrea Stocco; University of Washington; Aug 2013)
• Brain decoding: Reading minds (Kerri Smith; Nature; Oct 2013)
• Mind-Reading Computer Instantly Decodes People's Thoughts (Tia Ghose; LiveScience; Jan 2016)

We can't explain how or why we have dreams, or other experiences, but that doesn't mean the experiences aren't real. — Sam26

The experience can occur without the events occurring. I dreamt of flying, but did not fly. She dreamt of being outside her body, without being outside her body.

I'll sum the video up for you. Pam had an operation for an aneurysm in which the brain had to be completely drained of blood and the heart stopped. She was also being monitored for any brain activity, and there was none. Her eyes were taped shut and her hearing was blocked by ear plugs that gave off clicking sounds. She was wheeled into the operating room after she was put under, and yet she was able to describe things and conversations in that room from a third person perspective in detail. All of her testimony was verified by doctors and nurses who were there.

, don't expect me to apologize for your bruise the next day, if I slapped you in a dream. :D

I hope you are not too disappointed when I note that you do not appear in my dreams.

It's true that experiences can occur without the actual events occurring, but this is not the case in these situations, at least a large portion of them. If you had a dream you were flying and you were able to describe actual events happening as you flew, that would be comparable to what we are describing here. We're talking about describing actual events along with other metaphysical events which makes one wonder if what their seeing is real. There are too many accounts that don't fit into what your making them out to be. Moreover, there are too many consistent metaphysical events described for it to be something other than real.

It's astonishing. I do not have the answer.

But that does not lead me to conclude that her mind became disembodied and floated above the surgery.

How many gadgets that look like electric toothbrushes are there in a surgical room? Did the cardiologist visit her again after she became partially conscious? How much of her account is due to unintended cold reading?

I'm just not convinced.

So in order to know what "red" means, you must already know what sort of things are red. Yet to know which things are red, you must know what "red" means.

What do you make of this puzzle? — Banno

The second sentence doesn't follow. I knew red prior to knowing the word "red."

I'm happy to accept that she somehow has memories of those experiences.

I'm remain unconvinced that they are the result of an actual disembodiment.

That one video is not necessarily enough to convince someone, but there is just too many accounts, and thus too much testimonial evidence for me to reject the testimony. This is one of the reasons I believe I know consciousness survives the body.

As I said before if that's not enough evidence (literally millions of accounts), then nothing would count as testimonial evidence. Thanks though for your responses.

In order to provide some model of consciousness that may explain these experiences it is necessary to think of memory and observation in a different manner. Memory and consciousness is not confined to the brain.

There are holographic theories of the universe which may provide a workable model.

I knew red prior to knowing the word "red." — Hanover

Here I suspect we meet an impasse. I'd say you could distinguish one colour from another, but still did not know that one of them was red. Witness the Greek's "bronze sky", and the Himba seeing different colours to you or I. Language crystallises perception.

Conviction is personal. I remain skeptical.

, let me rephrase that: don't expect @Wayfarer to apologize for Donald Trump's bruise the next day, if he slapped him in a dream. ;)

I'm not simply giving a conviction, although I am doing that, I'm also giving good reasons, objective reasons to support a conclusion.

if he slapped him in a dream — jorndoe

Trump, or Wayfarer? It worries me that you should dream about either.

And I think those reasons insufficient.

Flip the coin again. What would have to be the case for a mind to be able to see, hear, feel, smell - without a body?

I see so many problems with a dualist account that I will not be easily convinced.

see . Up the garden path.

Trump, or Wayfarer? It worries me that you should dream about either. — Banno

That was a @Wayfarer dream. I just dream about slapping you, without apologizing for any injuries. I'm bad that way. ;)

I agree that memory and consciousness is not confined to the brain. I also agree that the holographic model is something important. In fact, some of the NDEs support the holographic model.

After studying these experiences it's interesting to compare what happens in dream states to what happens in terms of memory in these NDEs. There seem to be different levels of consciousness, and at least one level of consciousness is quite apart from the physical body.

Yes. As evidence accumulates, more and more research and thought both in philosophy and science as well other disciplines is being turned to rethinking the nature of consciousness.

It seems to me that introducing holographic models of the universe in order to bolster claims of NDE's is looking in the wrong direction, and one might better look to a sceptical approach to the NDE claims.

So that's me out, then.

I agree.