• WISDOMfromPO-MO
    753
    Sure we do, it's abundantly obvious. Very high numbers of guns in culture, frequent depictions of killings in movies and video games, and imitative behaviour on the part of alienated or psychologically unbalanced individuals. It's a problem almost unique to the USA, although it does happen in other countries, but with nowhere near the same frequency.Wayfarer

    Speculation.

    At least until conclusive scientific evidence of a causal relationship is presented.

    And "why they are happening" refers to the underlying cause--the one variable that can be isolated.

    It could be that contemporary life deprives people of sleep.

    We don't know.
  • Wosret
    3.4k
    "If we attempt an enumeration, every thing that is not enumerated is presumed to be given. The consequence is, that an imperfect enumeration would throw all implied power into the scale of the government, and the rights of the people would be rendered incomplete. On the other hand, an imperfect enumeration of the powers of government reserves all implied power to the people; and by that means the constitution becomes incomplete. But of the two, it is much safer to run the risk on the side of the constitution; for an omission in the enumeration of the powers of government is neither so dangerous nor important as an omission in the enumeration of the rights of the people."

    James Wilson. So, the dilemma is that if a right is not enumerated in the constitution, does that imply that people do not have that right, siding with the power of the government? Or that they do, siding with the power of the people?

    The ninth amendment addresses this.

    As for Japan, I'm just suspicious of such a perfect record. Basically no crime, and they always get their man when there is...
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    I would say that you are right. Legislation is needed.WISDOMfromPO-MO

    Well, that's a relief, although after Virginia Tech, and indeed after every mass shooting, there has indeed been a flurry of legislation, mainly aimed at easing restrictions on owning a gun.

    Speculation.WISDOMfromPO-MO

    Fact. The correlation between numbers of guns, and gun deaths, can't be equivocated.

    I'm just suspicious of such a perfect record. Basically no crime, and they always get their man when there is...Wosret

    The article doesn't say there is no crime in Japan, but according to that story, homicide by gun is very rare.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    being more aware of the behavior of others, recognizing the warning signs of a potential mass shooting, being aware of suspicious behavior, etc. and knowing how to intervene.WISDOMfromPO-MO

    Also, in this most recent case, law enforcement reports that there were no 'red flags' whatever in the case of the Los Vegas perpetrator. Nobody around him suspected anything, the gun shops where he bought all his guns thought he was a perfectly ordinary person, which apparently he was right up until that last minute.

    Here in Australia, by the way, there was an appalling mass-shooting in 1996, after which the then-PM, a conservative, passed strict gun laws. There hasn't been another mass-shooting, which is not to say there is no gun crime. But the NRA had the temerity to launch an ad directed at Australia saying that we were being 'deprived of freedom' by the Government, which was infuriating. There are a few gun nuts advocates in Australian politics, including one who brags about killing elephants, but fortunately their numbers and influence are small. So far.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    I wasnt going off of that article just crime statistics. China, particular Hong Kong has super low crime rates as well if you believe them.
  • Baden
    16.3k


    I can attest that violent crime is pretty low in China. People seem to get their aggression out by shouting, spitting, and noisily devouring bowls of noodles. There's a model for a peaceful society.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    You guys are pretty naive I think... never trust the chinese...
  • Baden
    16.3k


    When I wrote that first my thought was these outlets for aggressive behaviour probably helped. But really, if you look across the region you find a similar story regardless of overt "politeness" (the Japanese are apparently very polite). So, the cultural aspect is hard to pin down, and we're back to strict laws and regulations.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    So you believe that a 99.7% conviction rate isnt a sign of corruption? It is established that the chinese at least release tons of fabricated clinical trails and economic data, why wouldnt they on this as well? There is a reason why they suck at science. Not to mention the epidemic of flat footedness... just saying...
  • Baden
    16.3k
    So you believe that a 99.7% conviction rate isnt a sign of corruption?Wosret

    No, doesn't change anything I said though.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    I'm just saying that they lie is all... not because they're devious, but because their cultures differ. At no time did any of their cultures ever hold truth to be paramount. The Chinese tend to hold modesty above truth, and the Japanese public order, and politeness above truth. They've done studies on school children that show that they don't even count all forms of saying false things as "lying", like westerners, only if anti-social really.

    Science, truth being paramount, even when it may be anti-social, regardless of consequences, held as paramount, is solely a Christian value. Show me a Kant in any other culture.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.1k
    In many of these mass murders there were red flags well in advance of the crime and opportunities to intervene were missed. Virginia Tech is the best example that I know of.WISDOMfromPO-MO

    Hindsight is 20/20. Do you really believe that we could identify all the red flags, and then start to act on those red flags? What would those actions consist of, depriving thousands of people of their rights and freedoms because they demonstrated "red flags"?

    We can't predict when and where they will happen.WISDOMfromPO-MO

    Isn't this contrary to your red flag statement?

    But I have never heard of anybody spontaneously carrying out a mass shooting.WISDOMfromPO-MO

    This would depend on how you define "spontaneously".

    Red flags are probably there well before the end a lot of the time.WISDOMfromPO-MO

    Oh, so now red flags are probably there. What would such a red flag look like, someone buying massive quantities of ammo at one time? If the act wasn't "spontaneous", then the stocking up of ammo would be over a period of time.

    There is no consistency to your statements at all. The lack of spontaneity, which you have noted, is what makes the act well planned, no red flags, and unlikely to be uncovered in advance. So your "red flags" are just a red herring, and if we act on such red flags all we do is deprive many innocent people of their freedom.
  • Baden
    16.3k


    Sure, and Thais tend to hold saving face above truth. They find our truthiness ugly and demeaning at times. A (real life) example: a foreign teacher catches a student cheating in an exam, removes him and reports him to his Thai boss. The shocked Thai doesn't know what to do. The foreign teacher is confused "Cheating is against the rules, isn't it?". The Thai looks at him as if he's an idiot "Of course, but why did you see him?!" Doesn't mean this always happens everywhere but that it ever does illustrates the point well enough. Anyway, interesting but off-topic.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    The point was disputing the dubious statistics.
  • Baden
    16.3k


    I meant I was going off topic. Anyway, sure they're dubious (to a degree).
  • BC
    13.6k
    I can't help but think that this has become a meme; and that for a certain type of mentality, the behaviour has become normalised. So at any given time, there are probably many thousands of men - it's always men - who will be thinking 'I could do that'. Presumably, their lives are full of sufficient inner torment and self-hatred to provide the impetus for such terrible crimes.Wayfarer

    I don't know what the natural history of a "Mass Murder Meme" (MMM) is. Gun manufacturers have some role in it's creation and perpetuation. If a product carries inherent meaning, then the meaning of high-powered rifles is different than cheap handguns. High capacity magazines are tributaries, as are devices such as the "bump stock" which enables machine-gun performance. There is a lot of cultural activity involving guns. The NRA, individual gun popularizers, political figures all have a role.

    This morning (11/6/17) I heard Trump make the mandatory announcement that "guns are not the problem" -- this in response to yesterday's mass shooting in a Texas church -- 26 killed, more wounded.

    Guns are the problem, even if it is very, very late in the game to gain control over the estimated 100 million guns.

    Memes and the people for whom they become directives are also a problem. The meme will find the man who has reached the end of reason, is alienated. The meme will find a few of the damaged men for whom family and community have ceased to exist.

    Is it "anomie"?

    Anomie is a "condition in which society provides little moral guidance to individuals". It is the breakdown of social bonds between an individual and the community, e.g., under unruly scenarios resulting in fragmentation of social identity and rejection of self-regulatory values. It was popularized by French sociologist Émile Durkheim in his influential book Suicide (1897). Durkheim never uses the term normlessness; rather, he describes anomie as "derangement", and "an insatiable will".

    For Durkheim, anomie arises more generally from a mismatch between personal or group standards and wider social standards, or from the lack of a social ethic, which produces moral deregulation and an absence of legitimate aspirations.
    — wikipedia

    If Devin Patrick Kelley, mass murderer du jour, was experiencing anomie, it began years ago. He served time in a military prison for domestic abuse, and was then discharged from the service. It began earlier still.

    Guns are certainly the problem in a society which sees social bonds between individual and community breaking down. There are several candidate contributors to "fragmentation of social identity" and loss of "self-regulatory values".

    Anomie starts with bad parenting, and bad parenting is generational. You can readily see the difference between parents and their children who are present and engaged and parents who are not really competent, and disengaged.

    Anomie continues with school, where emphasis on "mass" education leads to -- not cracks, but crevasses -- into which children fall and are therein neglected.

    It often continues into adult work life, but even if work is not further alienating, damaged people don't succeed.

    Mass murders are a signal (in the same way an exploding bomb is a signal) that there are regions of severe dysfunction in a society. And yes, loading up the market with guns which have no hunting or sport value is located in this region.
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