My two-cents:
Testimonial statements need to satisfy the following criteria:
1. The person must be reliable i.e. s/he must be honest.
2. The testimony must fit in with the existing knowledge framework. I think this is your criteria of consistency.
3. Corroboration is a plus point, especially if varied - men, women, animals, instruments, etc.
Testimonial statements re ''consciousness surviving the body'' fail on 2 and 3 - at least that's'what they say. — TheMadFool
That’s what I’m trying to get at. What does that statement mean? What religious baggage does reincarnation carry?
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Is it that, because you’re an Atheist, any subject, statement or word that comes from a religion is thereby ruled-out?
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If suggestions or proposals have come to us from a millennia-old tradition, does that, for you, discredit them? — Michael Ossipoff
I don't think that we'll make much more progress since we're at the stage of saying the other person has not answered previous points. I presented the previous arguments I made as if I had demonstrated them, I believe they're conclusive - but of course I could be wrong. This impasse is unfortunate — fdrake
I took some drugs once and had a trip. I saw Mario jump out of the closet in my room. I didn't for one second believe Mario was there. There's definitely the possibility for non-equivalence between the content of the experience and what things in the environment generated it (specifically for me it was the drug, not a hidden Mario in the closet). I take descriptions of NDEs as accurate descriptions of what the people experienced (a truism), but not necessarily in accord with what actually happened. Without actually going through all the papers (an exercise I believe unlikely to provide sufficient evidence that consciousness leaves the body). The filters I described are examples of standard procedures to remove confounding variables to allow for causal claims to be made. Just generating an accurate statement (after filter application) still isn't sufficient to show that NDE experiences peer beyond the veil. — fdrake
How would a conclusion in this instance benefit you. Sure there is much evidence to support a theory that consciousness survives the body but there would certainly be many questions which could not be answered which would/should make one hesitate in making any conclusion especially if making a conclusion was not necessary. — Another
Even with everything we know about body and mind today without actually crossing the threshold of life and death this is question that could not be answered conclusively. — Another
As stupid as it sounds I still ponder these thing continuously but this has never been a fruitful exercise. (I will certainly continue to ponder as well) — Another
Debating this or trying to convince someone this without more than a blurry picture and idea and with no means of obtaining indisputable evidence is questionable.
Certainly explore and ponder, it would be foolish to ignore what's happening around you but again I don't believe you can possibly find an answer.
I would enjoy little more than you proving me wrong though. — Another
— Michael OssipoffThat’s what I’m trying to get at. What does that statement mean? What religious baggage does reincarnation carry?
.
Is it that, because you’re an Atheist, any subject, statement or word that comes from a religion is thereby ruled-out?
.
If suggestions or proposals have come to us from a millennia-old tradition, does that, for you, discredit them?
.What I mean by religious baggage is all the dogma that people believe based on very little evidence, or based on ancient writings that have very little support.
.I try to go where the evidence leads
.Finally, you say that continuity of experience is all you need for continuity of the person. But how would you know that you have continuity of experience if you don't remember your experiences?
You seem to be saying, sorry if I'm incorrect, that since these filters are possible defeaters, that I should reject the testimonials.
This is in line with the hypothesis that the core components of a NDE are neurophysiologically determined [4], [18]. If we assume that some physiological mechanisms can account for NDEs (e.g. OBEs caused by a deficient multisensory integration at the right [19], [20], [21] or left [22] temporo-parietal junction or feeling the presence of another (deceased) person possibly caused by left temporo-parietal junction dysfunction [20]), then the subject really perceived these phenomena, albeit not corresponding to occurring events in reality. At this point, NDEs can meet the definition of hallucinations : “Any percept-like experience which (a) occurs in the absence of an appropriate stimulus, (b) had the full force or impact of the corresponding actual (real) perception, and (c) is not amenable to direct and voluntary control by the experiencer” [23]. Note that hallucinations are recognized to most often have pathophysiological or pharmacological origins, as we hypothesize, also is the case for NDEs. As for hallucinations, NDEs present a real perceptual bias (due to physiological mechanisms taking place during NDEs) and can include as many characteristics as real event memories. In addition, the effects of emotional and self-referential values of the NDE could make it a kind of “super-real” memory containing even more characteristics than real event memories. Considering together the concept of flashbulb memories and the similarity of NDEs with hallucinations, the higher amount of characteristics for NDEs that was here observed suggest that the memories of NDEs are flashbulb memories of hallucinations.
I don't subscribe to complete skepticism, but a healthy skepticism. — Sam26
Plato says that if souls are merely the “harmonies” of the physical parts of the body then those with greater or lesser bodies have greater or lesser souls.
I work with individuals with disabilities and injuries and this argument speaks directly to my daily experiences. If our minds and indenties are based entirely off physical brain functions that people are naturally greater or lesser quality based on the quality or fiction of these structures and their function. A person with greater dendrite density in speech areas with greater verbal abilities is superior to a person lacking this enhanced variance. Even greater are both these typical individuals versus a child with cognitive impairments or an adult with a brain injury or stroke affecting their speech.
People born with lesser cognitive capacity or those who suffer injuries to their brain are inherently lesser human beings if there is no non-physical enduring source of worth.
This is then simmilar to Kant’s argument for God based on the need for justice. It is monsterous to imagine there are people with lesser or greater souls therefore souls must be independent of the body and must endure beyond bodily ills. — MysticMonist
But what if reality is monstrous? IMO, it's hard not to love the intelligent more than the unintelligent, the healthy more the sick, the beautiful more than the ugly. One might decide that life isn't fair. A cynical or critical mind could postulate that philosophers often work to cover up this monstrousness. Ideas of cosmic justice or God can be viewed as "shields" against the otherwise blatant injustice and cruelty of reality.
Parenting comes to mind. Parents try to be fair. They try to create a "little world" for their children, where children are rewarded and punished justly, always for their own good in the context of unconditional love. One could theorize that theodicies are ways that adults try to continue this situation past childhood. We dream up immortal souls because it's just too painful to see the little girl die of cancer or the brain-damaged adult float through life as a dependent. — t0m
I believe that persons have intrinsic worth that goes beyond one's ability, and that one's intrinsic worth demands that we treat people with respect, and that we treat them justly. I don't believe this is dependent upon one's belief in God, or some other lawgiver. — Sam26
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