from hereIndividuals are not there (in any strict sense) before interaction; they are constituted, in important respects, in and through interaction. Intersubjectivity (partial sharedness) comes about on the basis of interactivity:
• Persons, social beings, are partly constituted in/through self‐other relations.
• A person (self) can embody ”dialogical” emotions: shame, guilt, pride, complacence, complaisance,
conscience, consciousness, compassion, empathy/sympathy, morality (right/wrong), etc. are all emotions that would be impossible without direct or indirect relations to others (situationally but above all culturally).
• The distinction between individual freedom (at the expense of others ́ subordination) and solidarity (actions in others ́ best interest) are based on dialogicality and interactivity. Searle (2008) discusses other related notions like the phenomenon of human civilization, and monologisation with the consent of others (e.g. in some democratic organisations).
There are many other issues associated with intersubjectivity. I will mention a few here, and refer to Linell (2013e):
• There are several levels of intersubjectivity, different in degree of awareness and other dimensions. One distinction, with intermediate degrees, concern taken‐for‐granted (unreflected) intersubjectivity vs. reflected intersubjectivity. Rommetveit (1974: 56; RETH: 81) says about this: “Intersubjectivity has to be taken for granted in order to be achieved.” That is, we must trust that there is some common ground to begin with, if we want to achieve more reflected types of intersubjectivity, e.g. through negotiations or through bringing something into language. This raises the issue of the relation between intersubjectivity and trust: everything that we cannot know for sure but must take for granted or shared (intersubjective). Trust is a phenomenon closely linked to dialogicality; it is at the same time elusive and ubiquitous (Linell & Marková, 2013a, b, and references there). — Linell
My guess is that the laypeople just talked to the patients, maybe went for walks with them on the hospital grounds, spent time with them. Maybe ate with them in the hospital cafeteria. They were 'nice' to the patients. If psychiatric hospital staff are not cruel to their patients, they are often not "nice" to them. They keep their clean crisp distance.
People who become psychotic by way of mania (bi-polar) or schizophrenia are likely to recover their sanity through medication and good psychiatric care (talk therapy)--and/or maybe by the passage of time.
I don't have any reason to doubt that the Finnish patients liked the interaction they had, and benefitted from it. But the kind of fast fix that an American insurance company would love, I'm not so sure. — Bitter Crank
Let me just remark that there seems to be a foundational, unreflective immediacy of intersubjectivity that is prior to language that can be exemplified by mother and child relations that are non-verbal in the first instance. — unenlightened
I...believe that [infant] moods are cocreated by the interplay of active, self-organized biorhythmic affective control processes in the infant and the effect of the emotions expressed by others during routine social/emotional exchanges on mood-control processes. Thus, although we attribute moods to an individual - the infant is in a mood, and the mood is in her - I argue that moods are cocreated by the infant interacting with others and they organize the infant and communicate that organization to others. — Tronick
I'm almost saying that individuality is madness... — unenlightened
Part of the dialogical approach is that ideas rarely happen in an 'inner world' but rather in the inter-world. — mcdoodle
I need to read some more, so this is a directed random fragment of fragments. Let me just remark that there seems to be a foundational, unreflective immediacy of intersubjectivity that is prior to language that can be exemplified by mother and child relations that are non-verbal in the first instance. And this bodily immediacy persists in dialogue generally as 'body language', and is only eliminated as a major factor in virtual worlds such as this. — unenlightened
My traumatic initiation into the solitary cerebral self. — unenlightened
We do not know exactly what drives a young child away from the inter-subjective toward the inner-subjective, the reasons for this I think can be infinite. The fact is that it does happen to us all, to an extend, some more than others. I do not think that we can say whether it is something good or bad, — Metaphysician Undercover
, whether the notion of honesty could apply to my mother's nonverbal communication, and if so, whether it was honest or dishonest?Where does honesty lie in this approach? — Metaphysician Undercover
whether the notion of honesty could apply to my mother's nonverbal communication, and if so, whether it was honest or dishonest?
I'm inclined to think that she did not any more want the intimacy I presumed, and conveyed it by subtly ridiculing me for wanting it, without actually denying me by pushing me away. And I cannot say in this situation, and in so many others, whether this is honest or dishonest, because it is the relationship transforming itself, and in the transformation, both my and my mother's identities are transformed (mine more so). I suppose one could translate this into English as the instruction, "Grow up." where being grown up has a particular social meaning, of physical separation with attendant implications of emotional independence. — unenlightened
But he couldn't bring himself to be comforting, and he told me I had to learn to fight back and be a man. Even now, all these years on, this appals me, for I think he was saying, this is who I am, I'm not going to comfort you, I'm going to Tell You The Truth As I See It. — mcdoodle
What I was hoping to illustrate with my anecdote was that intersubjective communication is - in the beginning at least - nonverbal. And I wanted to ask you because you asked,Where does honesty lie in this approach? — Metaphysician Undercover, whether the notion of honesty could apply to my mother's nonverbal communication, and if so, whether it was honest or dishonest? — unenlightened
I believe honesty and deception go far deeper than verbal communication. — Metaphysician Undercover
Sometimes, I find that in my shyness I do not say what I should say. Later, I may feel discomfort, a sort of guilt, for not saying what I should have said when the time was right. So I can only interpret this feeling of guilt as being derived from a type of dishonesty which I see in myself. — Metaphysician Undercover
Approximately 1 in 5 adults in the U.S.—43.8 million, or 18.5%—experiences mental illness in a given year.
Approximately 1 in 25 adults in the U.S.—9.8 million, or 4.0%—experiences a serious mental illness in a given year that substantially interferes with or limits one or more major life activities.
Approximately 1 in 5 youth aged 13–18 (21.4%) experiences a severe mental disorder at some point during their life. For children aged 8–15, the estimate is 13%.
But in all these cases, my own feeling is that honesty/dishonesty is not even applicable. Cats, stick insects, the schoolboys, my mother, seem to be 'doing what come naturally'; there is deception perhaps, but no intention to deceive. — unenlightened
Where I find a more agonising grey area, is the notion of self-deception. I can wonder, for example if McDoodle's father might have been deceiving himself that he was 'doing the right thing' and 'helping his son to grow up' and so on, when in fact he was recoiling from the expression by his son of his own feelings of hurt. — unenlightened
Anyway, honesty - vitally important but I don't really know what it is. Perhaps we have to say that it is your best effort to respond fully in the moment, in the condition that you're in, as far as you know. And then your second-guesses afterwards are perhaps self insights, or perhaps deceptive self-flagellation, and it will take your best third guess to decide which. — unenlightened
Should we follow the inter-subjective definition which requires that we suppress some natural feelings, or ought we allow natural feelings to flow freely in therapy? Each would be a somewhat opposing sense of "honesty". — Metaphysician Undercover
Client-centered therapy operates according to three basic principles that reflect the attitude of the therapist to the client:
The therapist is congruent with the client.
The therapist provides the client with unconditional positive regard.
The therapist shows empathetic understanding to the client.
One can be true to oneself, which means acting according to one's own inner feelings, or one can be true what one thinks is expected of oneself, by others. The former implies that the person, while being true to oneself, would be selfish, and might be dishonest to others, while the latter allows for self-deception. Which type of honesty do you think that the therapist wants to inspire in the client? — Metaphysician Undercover
Good to see the second-person perspective getting some play in that de Quincey essay. I hope to give it a look sometime.But my particular interest in this thread is to explore the notion of intersubjective consciousness, if anyone is up for it. And the particular thing that I want to keep to the fore, that I take from all the above, is the way in which the manner and tone as well as the content of our contributions actively shapes what I have elsewhere indicated as our morale, but here will call the intersubjective consciousness we are and will be constructing. — unenlightened
That sort of attunement is a fact of life. It's not limited to parent-child relations, it reaches us everywhere.Trevarthen’s careful observations of parents and infants demonstrate that the original human experience of dialogue emerges in the first days of life, as parent and child engage in an exquisite dance of mutual emotional attunement by means of facial expressions, hand gestures and tones of vocalisation. This is truly a dialogue: the child’s actions influ- ence the emotional states of the adult, and the adult, by engaging, stimulating and soothing, influences the emotional states of the child.
...my particular interest in this thread is to explore the notion of intersubjective consciousness, if anyone is up for it. And the particular thing that I want to keep to the fore, that I take from all the above, is the way in which the manner and tone as well as the content of our contributions actively shapes what I have elsewhere indicated as our morale, but here will call the intersubjective consciousness we are and will be constructing. — unenlightened
Truth and trust underwrite every bit of this, and the role that they play in thought/belief and language is imperative to understanding the efficacy of talk, and how many become distraught and/or mentally ill.
I want to say quite a bit more, particularly regarding the importance that honesty has in all of this. The way that it has been framed heretofore bears witness to an inadequate criterion for what counts as honesty and/or being honest. It is inextricably entwined with trust and truth within one's worldview, without exception. Here, it is appropriate for me to remove the hat of unapologetic criticism and don the pen of a much more considerate and therefore approachable public assistant. That seems to be the intended spirit underwriting the thread. — creativesoul
That's the sort of trance I prefer to get into with my interlocutors. — Cabbage Farmer
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