I feel alienated, but mostly from myself, my real self and the alienation stems from a natural desire to feel some kinship with those around me, ultimately suppressing the person that I am. As an example, if you have bad people around you, you have to act tough to protect yourself even if you are non-violent. It was not until several years ago when I met the worst sort of people that enabled a consciousness of the vanity of such a desire and when I nearly passed away after an accident and all on my own, I realised that I failed myself.

While I have spent so much time just trying to recover that horrible experience, I have recently had an epiphany that I am a culmination of choices that are leading to what I deeply want most, which has always been to fight injustice. I studied a masters in human rights law, I am working with disadvantaged women and children, I write on a blog, all leading to this created 'destiny' where it is my plan and dream to work in international human rights and write a novel. I applied for my first international post last week and I no longer have writers block.

There is a part of me that is telling myself to enjoy, have fun, relax because I feel like the time for serious is coming soon enough. This 'serious' is basically no longer dividing myself between two worlds, but quite simply being myself in this world and letting go of that desire which causes that alienating feeling. The more independent I become, the less desirious I am of others and the really odd thing is that by doing so I am attracting better people, company that I enjoy. To focus on yourself, on building virtue and a good character, you find wholeness and a peace that is good for you in so many ways.

Thanks for the reply, wasn't really expecting any.

I went ahead and bought some 'back to basics' books I relied on upon heavily in the past. The single most influential book that gave me sanity in face of adversity and trials, has to be Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. It's more of a 'man's' book if you get what I mean.

I figure, I learned some lessons and will return to my old stoic self. Being a stoic is comforting and helps me rise above this malaise I am professing in the OP. I don't want to end up hating being around people if that is not already something I feel as if what is becoming a reality. Though there is a small amount of some self-centered narcissism being professed here, I must add. So to speak, 'look at me' I don't care about what you care about, and I feel better about myself because of that.

Feeling as though through the years, that the only person I can really count on is my mother and closest family, everything else seems like a (excuse my language) fucking joke or facade, which really makes me (ferment?) inside.

I want to be good; but, if people don't reward people who are good, then what's the point other than some sense of elevation above other people? Dare I say, is being a good person also stems from a desire to feel superior to other people? Hard to say...

Anyway, glad things are working out for you in the best. I've given up on college. I want to see how low I can go before life forces something on me to do or maybe fall in love, haha. Now, I just sound pathetic. A philosopher's life I guess?

I guess this passage really expresses the malaise I feel.

8. Don't demand that things happen as you wish, but wish that they happen as they do happen, and you will go on well.

Epictetus, Enchiridion.

I was going to get philosophical, but I felt that this was more a personal expression to a degree and I respect that.

I went ahead and bought some 'back to basics' books I relied on upon heavily in the past. The single most influential book that gave me sanity in face of adversity and trials, has to be Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. It's more of a 'man's' book if you get what I mean. — Posty McPostface

That is actually a great idea. The first time I was introduced to philosophy was when I was around 14 and I had a dodgy, second-hand The Last Days of Socrates that I read as I travelled on the train to the countryside. I just remember being blown away by some parts of it, as though it helped articulate pre-existing thoughts that I couldn't explain but it was already there. I may just do the same, reflect on how much things have changed since then. And yes, I get what you mean; honour, loyalty, things that have escaped contemporary versions of 'man'.

I figure, I learned some lessons and will return to my old stoic self. Being a stoic is comforting and helps me rise above this malaise I am professing in the OP. I don't want to end up hating being around people if that is not already something I feel as if what is becoming a reality. Though there is a small amount of some self-centered narcissism being professed here, I must add. So to speak, 'look at me' I don't care about what you care about, and I feel better about myself because of that. — Posty McPostface

Learning from mistakes is a gratifying experience because it enables progress and hating people around you is really projecting a hatred for yourself and on the contrary your desire for others is the actually self-centered narcissism though it may not appear that way; the desire to be connected to people that do not live up to this expectation causes this hatred. It is taking a responsibility, really, and this 'want' is often virtuous, moral in nature, to improve and do better for the right reasons. It is like Emerson said, that moderate balance between the individual who refuses to conform but who is nevertheless concerned with and a part of society; to spend time discussing moral concerns of a social and political nature, before going home and thinking about how you can improve. It is that balance.

Feeling as though through the years, that the only person I can really count on is my mother and closest family, everything else seems like a (excuse my language) fucking joke or facade, which really makes me (ferment?) inside. — Posty McPostface

You will come to find the compassion when you take responsibility for yourself, to count only on yourself and you will see most people conform because they become absorbed by their environment and it is their environment that is fake and superficial; they conform because they too desire the same camaraderie. You can indulge in the anger, as though you are trying to wake them from their slumber and indeed when you think of vicious 'honour' killings, I hardly think having a conversation with them will inspire such change, but in the end it is a broader systemic problem that takes advantage of this innate weakness in humanity. When you take responsibility for yourself and find that independence, you inspire both antagonism and deep affection (I have anyway) where there are those that try their best to defend tooth and nail the idea that conforming is a must that you are an 'enemy' of this, or deep affection because they are aware that something is wrong and you epitomise the independence that they want themselves but fail to know how to apply it practically.

I want to be good; but, if people don't reward people who are good, then what's the point other than some sense of elevation above other people? Dare I say, is being a good person also stems from a desire to feel superior to other people? Hard to say... — Posty McPostface

Be good for the Form itself, for the principle, the honour that Aurelius speaks so highly of because if your intention to do good is only because people like that or want that then it is not genuine but another attempt at pleasing others. Separate yourself from others and find the desire or will to improve in and for itself.

Anyway, glad things are working out for you in the best. I've given up on college. I want to see how low I can go before life forces something on me to do or maybe fall in love, haha. Now, I just sound pathetic. A philosopher's life I guess? — Posty McPostface

The pursuit of love is the greatest of all pursuits. It is pathetic and highly narcissistic if you choose to avoid real love, but the attempt or pursuit begins with friendship. Learn to be friends with others while finding that philosophical independence [which is to learn how to give love, to understand and feel empathy] but don't forget to live in the meantime. It is to be morally worthy, loving, and content but all with a genuine and conscious will.

I guess this passage really expresses the malaise I feel.

8. Don't demand that things happen as you wish, but wish that they happen as they do happen, and you will go on well.

Epictetus, Enchiridion. — Posty McPostface

I recently sang the Beatles' Let It Be when I went camping and I made a guy cry even though I don't have a great singing voice. I view the world exactly as the lyrics portray.

Hope you are in good health?

I'm still struggling to find a reason to participate in human society. I don't like the idea that we are to live to a certain expectation, School>College>University>Work>Retirement etc. Do you think I could survive if I chose to stop working tomorrow? I think not, as apparently it's becoming illegal (in places) to live off-grid. The everyday problems humanity encounter are by design of a corrupt system pedaled by a minority. How is it that ancient civilizations were able to determine things we have only recently discovered, yet they had it written on/in tablets and scrolls? This is but a fragment of problems, the issue is we are not asking the questing of how, how was it possible for them to know despite to official story of 'evolution and the ages'.

We're being deprived of knowledge and it makes me angry that I have to live among people who just accept the 'official stories'. I often want to just quit my job because of the things people say around me. They literally have no wisdom and can't think for themselves. People use concepts/sciences taught by evil to make misguided decisions/conclusions.

I don't know any 'acclaimed philosophers', it's never appealed to me that I should seek peace/consolation in others. Should you not live by your own compass and not someone else? All be it completely fine to do so as your freedom to choose.

It's becoming more a problem for me to the point I'm avoiding social confrontations to prevent talking about such topics. If I could take humans out of the equation my desire to never see or hear anything would lessen.

Reece

That is actually a great idea. The first time I was introduced to philosophy was when I was around 14 and I had a dodgy, second-hand The Last Days of Socrates that I read as I travelled on the train to the countryside. I just remember being blown away by some parts of it, as though it helped articulate pre-existing thoughts that I couldn't explain but it was already there. I may just do the same, reflect on how much things have changed since then. And yes, I get what you mean; honour, loyalty, things that have escaped contemporary versions of 'man'. — TimeLine

I started going to once a month Buddhist meetings around in my area. They're definitely good to be around with many other people who feel the same way or actually act in a manner consistent within an ethical framework, and boy Buddhism is quite a philosophy of life. Easy on paper, practice? Not so much.

Learning from mistakes is a gratifying experience because it enables progress and hating people around you is really projecting a hatred for yourself and on the contrary your desire for others is the actually self-centered narcissism though it may not appear that way; the desire to be connected to people that do not live up to this expectation causes this hatred. It is taking a responsibility, really, and this 'want' is often virtuous, moral in nature, to improve and do better for the right reasons. It is like Emerson said, that moderate balance between the individual who refuses to conform but who is nevertheless concerned with and a part of society; to spend time discussing moral concerns of a social and political nature, before going home and thinking about how you can improve. It is that balance. — TimeLine

I did like his friend, Henry David Thoreau, Walden. I liked B. F. Skinners Walden Two a lot more though, heh.

You will come to find the compassion when you take responsibility for yourself, to count only on yourself and you will see most people conform because they become absorbed by their environment and it is their environment that is fake and superficial; they conform because they too desire the same camaraderie. You can indulge in the anger, as though you are trying to wake them from their slumber and indeed when you think of vicious 'honour' killings, I hardly think having a conversation with them will inspire such change, but in the end it is a broader systemic problem that takes advantage of this innate weakness in humanity. When you take responsibility for yourself and find that independence, you inspire both antagonism and deep affection (I have anyway) where there are those that try their best to defend tooth and nail the idea that conforming is a must that you are an 'enemy' of this, or deep affection because they are aware that something is wrong and you epitomise the independence that they want themselves but fail to know how to apply it practically. — TimeLine

I have no desire to take responsibility for anything. I just accept things as they come along. To a point though, as I am no sage.

The pursuit of love is the greatest of all pursuits. It is pathetic and highly narcissistic if you choose to avoid real love, but the attempt or pursuit begins with friendship. Learn to be friends with others while finding that philosophical independence [which is to learn how to give love, to understand and feel empathy] but don't forget to live in the meantime. It is to be morally worthy, loving, and content but all with a genuine and conscious will. — TimeLine

Have a laugh:

I recently sang the Beatles' Let It Be when I went camping and I made a guy cry even though I don't have a great singing voice. I view the world exactly as the lyrics portray. — TimeLine

I think the Stoics got it right, along with their bedfellows the Cynics. I've always lived more of a Cynic life than a stoic one for the matter.

Hope you are in good health? — Reece

Thank you, a little overweight; but, doing fine.

I'm still struggling to find a reason to participate in human society. I don't like the idea that we are to live to a certain expectation, School>College>University>Work>Retirement etc. Do you think I could survive if I chose to stop working tomorrow? I think not, as apparently it's becoming illegal (in places) to live off-grid. The everyday problems humanity encounter are by design of a corrupt system pedaled by a minority. How is it that ancient civilizations were able to determine things we have only recently discovered, yet they had it written on/in tablets and scrolls? This is but a fragment of problems, the issue is we are not asking the questing of how, how was it possible for them to know despite to official story of 'evolution and the ages'. — Reece

It's mostly just a thing we just do and not rationalize over that much. I guess the easy answer is that we just conform to our past or present authoritarian structures and staus quo.

We're being deprived of knowledge and it makes me angry that I have to live among people who just accept the 'official stories'. I often want to just quit my job because off the things people say around me. They literally have no wisdom and can't think for themselves. People use concepts/sciences taught by evil to make misguided decisions/conclusions. — Reece

Hey, if it makes you feel better, I don't believe in the original 9/11 explanation as to three buildings falling down due to office fires, all in one day, and with the precedent being that it has never happened before or since 9/11. Strange day.

I don't know any 'acclaimed philosophers', it's never appealed to me that I should seek peace/consolation in others. Should you not live by your own compass and not someone else? All be it completely fine to do so as your freedom to choose.

It's becoming more a problem for me to the point I'm avoiding social confrontations to prevent talking about such topics. If I could take humans out of the equation my desire to never see or hear anything would lessen. — Reece

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. People to some degree disgust me nowadays. I'm not better than them though, and at least that realization helps me function and interact when necessary around them.

Best regards.

As long as your happy, that's all it comes down to at the end of our lives.

It's mostly just a thing we just do and not rationalize over that much. I guess the easy answer is that we just conform to our past or present authoritarian structures and staus quo. — Posty McPostface

- I'm in dire need of help. I need to find a 'distraction', something to take my mind away from the system/stresses of everyday living. On my commute to work I often find myself hoping for someone to crash into me just to make the cycle of life more interesting :/

Hey, if it makes you feel better, I don't believe in the original 9/11 explanation as to three buildings falling down due to office fires, all in one day, and with the precedent being that it has never happened before or since 9/11. Strange day. — Posty McPostface

- This is just one case, there are thousands of lies, lies on lies. Not knowing the truth/purpose aggravates me and as a result makes me depressed.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. People to some degree disgust me nowadays. I'm not better than them though, and at least that realization helps me function and interact when necessary around them. — Posty McPostface

- Yeah I even get angry inside at my family for the minor things they say/do. Have you ever thought you should stand by what you believe in, even if it means upsetting your own family? You are better in your own way. You determine your own right from wrong, that's how you deal with your conscience. I can't judge you and vice versa.

Reece

I feel alienated, but mostly from myself, my real self and the alienation stems from a natural desire to feel some kinship with those around me, ultimately suppressing the person that I am. As an example, if you have bad people around you, you have to act tough to protect yourself even if you are non-violent. It was not until several years ago when I met the worst sort of people that enabled a consciousness of the vanity of such a desire and when I nearly passed away after an accident and all on my own, I realised that I failed myself.

While I have spent so much time just trying to recover that horrible experience, I have recently had an epiphany that I am a culmination of choices that are leading to what I deeply want most, which has always been to fight injustice. I studied a masters in human rights law, I am working with disadvantaged women and children, I write on a blog, all leading to this created 'destiny' where it is my plan and dream to work in international human rights and write a novel. I applied for my first international post last week and I no longer have writers block.

There is a part of me that is telling myself to enjoy, have fun, relax because I feel like the time for serious is coming soon enough. This 'serious' is basically no longer dividing myself between two worlds, but quite simply being myself in this world and letting go of that desire which causes that alienating feeling. The more independent I become, the less desirious I am of others and the really odd thing is that by doing so I am attracting better people, company that I enjoy. To focus on yourself, on building virtue and a good character, you find wholeness and a peace that is good for you in so many ways. — TimeLine

Interesting. I could build a similar story, but lately, I don't feel the need. It's pointless - the gods give, and the gods take away. All else is just story-making that doesn't change anything.

You survived - who cares what this revealed to you if anything? It wasn't in your control. To look back and say "oh I wasn't really truthful to myself then" - so what? It doesn't change anything. Your life still remains as it is. Your destiny isn't self-made, but given - by Fortune, both the good and the bad.

Yes I notice the same thing, sometimes. I can be very non-philosophical too though, although I don't prefer being that way.

Part of the reason for this is that we haven't found a way to earn $$ out of doing philosophy, so the time you spend philosophising is time in which you're not engaged with the economy, and hence you're isolated. Zizek wouldn't feel like we do for example. If we found a way to earn money and live off doing philosophy - without being philosophy professors obviously - then it wouldn't be such a big issue.

Part of the reason for this is that we haven't found a way to earn $$ out of doing philosophy, so the time you spend philosophising is time in which you're not engaged with the economy, and hence you're isolated. Zizek wouldn't feel like we do for example. If we found a way to earn money and live off doing philosophy - without being philosophy professors obviously - then it wouldn't be such a big issue. — Agustino

Yes, but I have in mind the mind of the alienated individual who freely chooses to be alienated and in some sense or manner despises the masses due to their own lack of edifying interest in philosophy. Marx probably stands out as the most alienated feeling philosopher of the whole bunch; but, was able to grasp the minds of millions, and still does to this day.

Although there were philosophers in the past that made a good living out of their trade, we're known as sophists rather than pure philosophers. Why is that?

I'm in dire need of help. I need to find a 'distraction', something to take my mind away from the system/stresses of everyday living. On my commute to work I often find myself hoping for someone to crash into me just to make the cycle of life more interesting — Reece

Well, I think you're in the right place. I tend to this of these forums as a self-help guide/process. I'm still not halfway through my own therapy process.

Building on a previous thread about melancholy, I was wondering if anyone has felt some sort of alienation from practicing or doing philosophy. Some might say that this is a personal bias speaking or that there are plenty of examples of philosophers being compassionate or finding their place in the world; but, I'm interested in what the other phil-lovers have to say — Posty McPostface

In my capacity as the bringer of philosophical sweetness and light, I would say it has made me happier. I've never really been alienated, but I've been miserable. The things I do when I do philosophy are the same things I do when I'm not. Thinking is pretty much what I do. Philosophy requires better organization of my thoughts. I've noticed that doing it in public, like here, has made me better at expressing myself clearly. It has also made me more relaxed, peaceful. A lot of that comes from my time and place in life, but I give credit to the forum for some of it. Doing philosophy with others brings me out of myself.

I don't think I've ever felt alienated doing philosophy; if anything, philosophy is 'home' for me; it's in its world that I feel challenged, comforted, exhilarated and, well, happy. I feel like an explorer doing philosophy, searching out new vistas and being thrilled by discoveries. I've certainly been alienated by certain texts or ideas, but only because I've found them absurd or bizarre - but not in a way that rebounds upon myself. But then, I'm generally of a sunny disposition to begin with ^.^

uilding on a previous thread about melancholy, I was wondering if anyone has felt some sort of alienation from practicing or doing philosophy. — Posty McPostface

The unexamined life might not be worth living, but the carefully examined life might be more troubled. One does not need to think, read, or do philosophy to live a long and successful life. Conventions, habits, routines, rules, desires, needs, and so forth will get one from the cradle to the grave just fine. Pausing to question whether the life one lives is good, can be the beginning of much trouble.

Some dig their way into alienation and others fall into it. Either way, it is a fairly common experience to feel cut off from the vitality that seems to flow through society, and through many individuals.

But alienation is surely not a desirable state. Even if the affairs of the world are a great waste of futility ("Vanity of vanities, all is vanities" it says in Ecclesiastes) it is not good to just stop in the middle of the wasteland. ("If you are walking through hell, keep moving.")

Philosophy--in one form or another--can, may, should, could provide a means to recommit, connect, affirm, engage to something. I don't know of a good antonym for "alienate". But if one can "de-alientate" it is worth doing.

. I also think most people aren't interested in 'truth', 'wisdom', or positive human traits and virtues — Posty McPostface

This is the part that creates problems.

This is not why I study philosophy. I study philosophy in order to better understand life, and when I say study, I mean by actively participating in all aspects of life including politics, arts, sports, history, psychology, literature, science, health, etc. Personally I don't like drinking though I do go to bars sometimes to listen to music and drink some mineral water

Although there were philosophers in the past that made a good living out of their trade, we're known as sophists rather than pure philosophers. Why is that? — Posty McPostface

Only during Ancient Greece, but that's only because they had a non-capitalist economy. What you did in Ancient Greece was fight, train for Olympics, go and have fun in the market, trade, go to cultural shows, festivities, etc. - economy wasn't very relevant.

Later philosophers had no problem making dough. Epictetus had a philosophy school - can't have a school without the dough. Seneca was richest man in Rome - and so on.

And now that we live in a capitalist economy, it is making money that has to bring us closer together. To be close, we need to make money together - we need to be actively engaged in the economy with each other. All of life today, apart from family life and downtime - is the economy.

All of life today, apart from family life and downtime - is the economy. — Agustino

As Uncle Karl said, "Under capitalism everything is reduced to the cash nexus."

As Uncle Karl said, "Under capitalism everything is reduced to the cash nexus." — Bitter Crank

Indeed, it's even pointless to fight it. Let's just restructure everything around it. Let's make money together, not alone.

Personally I don't like drinking though I do go to bars sometimes to listen to music and drink some mineral water — Rich

Here's to the man who drinks dark Ale and goes to bed quite mellow;
Here's to the man who drinks dark Ale and goes to bed quite mellow;
He lives as he out to live, lives as he ought to live; he'll die a jolly old fellow.
ha ha ha

Here's to the man who drinks water pure and goes to bed quite sober;
Here's to the man who drinks water pure and goes to bed quite sober;
He'll fall as a leaf do fall, fall as a leaf do fall, he'll die before October.
ho ho ho

Three Jolly Coachmen

Yes, but I have in mind the mind of the alienated individual who freely chooses to be alienated and in some sense or manner despises the masses due to their own lack of edifying interest in philosophy. — Posty McPostface

The thing that disturbs me most about this thread is the extent to which some of us feel contempt, anger toward those who don't share our values or follow our path. Everyday normal people live valuable lives. They love their children and maybe their spouse; work at jobs they like or maybe don't; have friends; walk their dogs; collect baseball cards; fish; read; .... Some are virtuous, some are not, most are some of the time and not others. Some are happy, some are miserable. You are no better than they are.

Here's to the man who drinks dark Ale and goes to bed quite mellow;
Here's to the man who drinks dark Ale and goes to bed quite mellow;
He lives as he out to live, lives as he ought to live; he'll die a jolly good fellow.
ha ha ha

Here's to the ma who drinks water pure and goes to bed quite sober;
Here's to the ma who drinks water pure and goes to bed quite sober;
He'll fall as a leaf do fall, fall as a leaf do fall, he'll die before October.
ho ho ho

Three Jolly Coachmen — Bitter Crank

Yeah, BC, that'll cheer him up.

And now that we live in a capitalist economy, it is making money that has to bring us closer together. To be close, we need to make money together - we need to be actively engaged in the economy with each other. All of life today, apart from family life and downtime - is the economy. — Agustino

This is the most depressing thing I've read on this forum.

I think this is one of the most depressing things I've read on this forum. — praxis

It's depressing because you're opposing it. If you stop opposing it, and just accept that our festival is the making of money, then you can join the party. What's the difference between making money and the Olympic games of the Greeks? Who cares if we gather around Olympic games, or profit making, or singing? So long as we gather together, it is enough.

It's depressing because you're opposing it. — Agustino

It's depressing because I'm not opposing it, and because others like yourself openly embrace it.

This is the part that creates problems. — Rich

...

I study philosophy in order to better understand life, and when I say study, I mean by actively participating in all aspects of life including politics, arts, sports, history, psychology, literature, science, health, etc. — Rich

Some would say your trying to find some deeper meaning to your life, or at the very least your not satisfied with them on face value. Though I understand that the art of living cannot be embraced on an online forum, that is some sort of substitute for a poor and broken mind.

Some would say your trying to find some deeper meaning to your life, or at the very least your not satisfied with them on face value. Though I understand that the art of living cannot be embraced on an online forum, that is some sort of substitute for a poor and broken mind. — Posty McPostface

To understand life is too become a better sailor. Too learn to become more skilled at navigation. To see more.

Those who limit their learning to drunken learning from books are limited to what a drunk can learn from books.

My interest in philosophy is not to be wiser, more virtuous, some sort of evangelist of Truth. I am simply here to learn, become a better navigator and express myself through creative thought and actions.

We all make choices as we wander through life.

And now that we live in a capitalist economy, it is making money that has to bring us closer together. To be close, we need to make money together - we need to be actively engaged in the economy with each other. All of life today, apart from family life and downtime - is the economy. — Agustino

This is the most depressing thing I've read on this forum. — praxis

Making money brings us closer together? In a sense, yes -- but only in a rather narrow, functional sense.

Were we yeomen in an Anglo Saxon village, 1000 AD, during a good year, working together would probably keep us, if not bring us, close. Sharing the labor of the land, sharing the joys of the meager festivals, sharing a bowl of soup and bread. Sure. Working together would bring us together. But that kind of life was obliterated by industrialism and capitalism centuries ago.

By our labor in the economy we make money, I hate to break it to you, honey, but engaging in economic activity with you isn't going to bring us together. Transactions are alienated interactions, for the most part. You may make--I may save--money in a transaction, but we aren't going to be buddies as a result.

Humans do interact economically. We have to. Unless I go catch them myself, I'll have to engage in economic exchange to get a can of sardines. There must be something better--more meaningful, more compelling, more enlightening, than making money.

I will not here recommend we all become cashless socialists in one great collective. Collectivized economy or capitalized economy is going to be pretty much the same thing. There has to be something beyond commerce, something beyond profit, something beyond meeting needs, something beyond the treadmill.

Family life and downtime? No, I think in this economic world, family life and downtime figure into the economy as much as buying that can of sardines.

Post removed for privacy reasons.

This is going to sound super-arrogant, but so be it. Sometimes it feels to me like interacting with dogs. I love dogs. — oysteroid

No, we don't think you're arrogant. And we love you too.

Does philosophy cause alienation or does alienation cause philosophy? — oysteroid

Very sad, but very well written.