Interesting. I could build a similar story, but lately, I don't feel the need. It's pointless - the gods give, and the gods take away. All else is just story-making that doesn't change anything.

You survived - who cares what this revealed to you if anything? It wasn't in your control. To look back and say "oh I wasn't really truthful to myself then" - so what? It doesn't change anything. Your life still remains as it is. Your destiny isn't self-made, but given - by Fortune, both the good and the bad. — Agustino

For a start, I am happy with one God. We have moved on rather substantially from the ancients and it seems somewhat contradictory that - what with Tyche or Fortuna - you seemingly appreciate the very "story-making" that you oppose. Secondly, it is articulating your own story, which is merely learning how to use reason and common sense, to apply yourself correctly. My life is the sum of a sequence of choices, there is no plan given to me where reason and rational thought is involved. Without the latter, I am non-existent.

I care what this revealed to me because I became conscious of how such terrible things occurred because I allowed it to and it gave me the capacity to visualise the temporal sequence of events that lead to that in order to learn to prevent that from occurring again. It gave me a sense of duty, taught me to honour virtue, and made me incredibly happy. I do not sit there and go "meh, its all Fortune" but I make it so because I exist.

I care what this revealed to me because I became conscious of how such terrible things occurred because I allowed it to and it gave me the capacity to visualise the temporal sequence of events that lead to that in order to learn to prevent that from occurring again. It gave me a sense of duty, taught me to honour virtue, and made me incredibly happy. I do not sit there and go "meh, its all Fortune" but I make it so because I exist. — TimeLine

Just a story though, doesn't change anything. You still almost died, you still suffered an accident, etc. etc. Suffering is not made better because you got something out of it.

We have moved on rather substantially from the ancients and it seems somewhat contradictory that - what with Tyche or Fortuna - you seemingly appreciate the very "story-making" that you oppose. — TimeLine

It's not a story, it is true. The gods raise some up and destroy others - the cycle of history.

For a start, I am happy with one God. — TimeLine

"the gods" are a metaphor for the guiding divinity.

how such terrible things occurred because I allowed it to — TimeLine

I don't think so - they just occurred because they occurred :s

It gave me a sense of duty, taught me to honour virtue, and made me incredibly happy. I do not sit there and go "meh, its all Fortune" but I make it so because I exist. — TimeLine

None of my experiences gave me anything except to understand that man is a straw dog, the puppet of the gods. That doesn't mean you shouldn't struggle towards the heights - just that reaching there is not in your hands.

Sorry, Agustino. I don't have time for one-liners with zero intellectual substance.

Up to you.

Philosophical understanding and intellectual sophistication and a head full of knowledge won't fill your heart or keep you warm or give your life meaning. — oysteroid

I see, and thinking that man is a straw dog or a puppet will fill your heart and give your life meaning? Where do you think meaning is understood and articulated? From luck? If you cannot ascertain the importance of your mind to your soul and sneakily try to draw in other people' arguments to justify your own, which is a rather unworthy tactic, then so be it back to you.

I see, and thinking that man is a straw dog and puppet will fill your heart and give your life meaning? — TimeLine

No, only Lady Fortune can do that.

From luck? — TimeLine

Yes. Luck, careful planning, laser-like focus. Meaning is not created, it is given.

Yes. Luck, careful planning, laser-like focus. Meaning is not created, it is given. — Agustino

So you need luck and careful planning? And, careful planning is... luck? So, how we interpret the fundamental nature of reality, of knowledge and of existence that we believe in is given by Lady Fortune?

Do you realise how crazy you sound?

Do you realise how crazy you sound? — TimeLine

That doesn't matter. Words are meaningless. Does reading my words - or any words for that matter - change one iota of your life? Not really. It's actions, not words, that change lives.

So you need luck and careful planning? — TimeLine

Absolutely. You have to do your best, but success isn't within your hands.

So, how we interpret the fundamental nature of reality, of knowledge and of existence — TimeLine

That is irrelevant. It won't put a dime in my pocket, get me to the moon, make me climb Everest, help me lift 30kg dumbbells at the gym, or anything else worth doing.

You have to do your best, but success isn't within your hands. — Agustino

So, where does this "careful planning" come in when you are trying to do your best? You are clearly not articulating yourself correctly, considering that careful planning is reason and rational thought and not Lady Fortuna. How crazy you sound does matter, because it ameliorates your state of mind and that would render concerns for how your "careful planning" or "doing your best" would manifest itself. To say that your interpretations of the external world are irrelevant and yet somehow believe that you can climb Everest only because of luck fails to acknowledge the mutually compatible combination of determinism and exercising your free-will.

It is a thing called consciousness.

Family life and downtime? No, I think in this economic world, family life and downtime figure into the economy as much as buying that can of sardines. — Bitter Crank

Good point.

So, where does this "careful planning" come in when you are trying to do your best? You are clearly not articulating yourself correctly, considering that careful planning is reason and rational thought and not Lady Fortuna. — TimeLine

Not really. Rational thought and careful planning is spending time doing nothing so that every once in awhile you get a good idea about what you should do - then you implement it. Most people can't stand 'wasting' time like this though - they get bored and quit.

To say that your interpretations of the external world are irrelevant and yet somehow believe that you can climb Everest only because of luck fails to acknowledge the mutually compatible combination of determinism and exercising your free-will. — TimeLine

No, just that thinking is irrelevant to actually climbing. It takes will, not thinking, to do that. Too much thinking paralyzes the will.

No, just that thinking is irrelevant to actually climbing. It takes will, not thinking, to do that. Too much thinking paralyzes the will. — Agustino

Why do you reify the execution of any activity? This seems arbitrary.

reify — schopenhauer1

?

Not really. Rational thought and careful planning is spending time doing nothing so that every once in awhile you get a good idea about what you should do - then you implement it. Most people can't stand 'wasting' time like this though - they get bored and quit. — Agustino

What "most people do" is not the point, it is distinguishing what "careful planning" is to you and if you say that reason and rational thought are pointless, careful planning is impossible. You are not articulating your adequately, on the contrary continuously escape from justifying your position and you can say, "well, who cares" but ultimately all that is is a blatant disregard for me as a person trying to have a conversation.

? — Agustino

Okay, I guess make exalted. Fill in word for making something more important than it should be.

The execution is the most important bit. What use - as Epictetus said - that you have read all those books, if you cannot execute?

How can one execute without reading all those books.

You are not articulating your adequately, on the contrary continuously escape from justifying your position and you can say, "well, who cares" but ultimately all that is is a blatant disregard for me as a person trying to have a conversation. — TimeLine

Well, I am trying to engage you in showing you that it's not words that are ultimately relevant. If you care about life - your life first and foremost - it's not words that matter.

How can one execute without reading all those books. — TimeLine

Most people have executed without reading all those books. You think Mahatma Gandhi read all the philosophers? He did read some religious Scriptures and the like, but you've probably read more than him. You think Mother Theresa was an intellectual genius? What about Dorothy Day? etc.

The execution is the most important bit. What use - as Epictetus said - that you have read all those books, if you cannot execute? — Agustino

Well, I was not trying to question why activity is more important than studying books or vice versa. My point was why does activity matter in the first place? Why does anything need to get done?

Well, I am trying to engage you in showing you that it's not words that are ultimately relevant. If you care about life - your life first and foremost - it's not words that matter. — Agustino

So, are you saying that after more than seven thousand posts and your considerable amount of hours that you have spent on here mean that you don't care about your life?

So, are you saying that after more than seven thousand posts and your considerable amount of hours that you have spent on here mean that you don't care about your life? — TimeLine

No, my posts are not helpful to me, obviously. They may be helpful to others, but not to me. Some other people's posts have been helpful to me, but they are rare and far between.

Since I work as self-employed and my work tools are the computer, spending time here is just... natural. lol.

Well, I was not trying to question why activity is more important than studying books or vice versa. My point was why does activity matter in the first place? Why does anything need to get done? — schopenhauer1

Why does answering that question matter in the first place? :s

Since I work as self-employed and my work tools are the computer, spending time here is just... natural. lol. — Agustino

Again, you are not answering the problem at hand. You said that people who care about their life that words would not matter. Being on this philosophy forum is not natural "lol" as there are millions of places to visit, other forums to chat on. You are here because you want to be here. You can bullshit to yourself to try and justify your original position, but you are doing a poor job of it.

Again, you are not answering the problem at hand. You said that people who care about their life that words would not matter. Being on this philosophy forum is not natural "lol" as there are millions of places to visit, other forums to chat on. — TimeLine

Sure, but people here can think better than elsewhere generally. There is help available in solving meta-philosophical issues - and on some ethical ones too. But not really in terms of metaphysics, etc.

And I'm sure if someone could get the people here to focus on a practical problem in a business/NGO kind of setting, they'd come up with better solutions than most "experts" out there. There's a lot of potential here, but it must be leveraged.

Thanks for sharing, I think lots of younguns such as myself can take away a lot from your experience.

Anyway, glad things are working out for you in the best. I've given up on college. I want to see how low I can go before life forces something on me to do or maybe fall in love, haha. Now, I just sound pathetic. A philosopher's life I guess? — Posty McPostface

That feeling. I think I get that feeling because I'm jealous. I rationalize my bad behavior (to refuse someone a good behavior you know you could provide) by looking at how little other people work but still somehow obtain that warmth of the herd. With that in mind, I grow resentful at the ease with which they do something that I try so hard for. I'd say that many philosophers agree that true friendship, a union of the minds, is the rarest and most beautiful virtue to hold. Even if we would never find that friend in real life we do have people across the internet and across time in books with whom we might share some solace. And, I tell myself I'll find someone one day. Fortune does have a big stake here and that also justifies some of why I'm so patient for it, or is it complacency.

Again, you are not answering the problem at hand. You said that people who care about their life that words would not matter. Being on this philosophy forum is not natural "lol" as there are millions of places to visit, other forums to chat on. You are here because you want to be here. You can bullshit to yourself to try and justify your original position, but you are doing a poor job of it. — TimeLine

Agustino is going all Zen on us. Acting without acting. I think the fact that it aggravates you so much is just icing on the cake. Maybe that is the cake.

I rationalize my bad behavior (to refuse someone a good behavior you know you could provide) by looking at how little other people work but still somehow obtain that warmth of the herd. — Frank Barroso

Such contempt. Condescension. Are you looking for someone who treats others as arrogantly as you do? You may not like them when you find them. Then again, you may. I have always been attracted to single-minded, self-absorbed people. I want to put my arms around them and say "There, there. Everything will be ok." On the other hand, it's not a good way to pick up chicks. Or guys.

If one were to participate in some evil-doing I hope they would at least like to understand why they feel that way and maybe even make it okay for themselves sometimes. Otherwise, Idk man are people merely perfect simulations that only do just actions and only I perceive them as unjust? Or wait, much worse, some people are merely ignorant and not very thoughtful of their actions or even the motivations behind them.

Thanks for sharing that poignant personal experience. Contrary to you, my isolation has manifested itself in the form of a deep mood called 'depression'. You don't seem like the depressed guy due to your feeling of alienation and isolation. However, the only thing in my time-space (being 27 years old on disability) that I can relate to is going back to college. I have enormous difficulty learning the material because my head will raise two more questions to one seeking an answer to, that need answering. I also know from a close friend that without a degree in engineering or computer science, it doesn't really matter where you graduate from to get a decent job.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that your sort of stuck in front of the anglerfish light that are values you've been raised with or observed and are still lured by it. I'd say detach yourself from those luring values that other's are lured to (like sheep), and pursue in great esteem and accept your life for what it is, unique, intelligent, and sensitive. There are other ways to contribute to society.

I mean, I live with my mother and don't see anything else in the world (depressingly) as of more value than being together with her and supporting her. We're both poor; but, are happy in our poverty. Sure, the ideas come flooding back to go to college, stay there as long as possible, and possibly prosper; but, I'm a guy that is easily entertained by philosophy and the sorts, so those ideals are receding into the past, and hopefully more-so in the future.

What I'm getting at, is that there has been a neurotic perversion of the self-being instilled in the new generation of people since, oh, the 50's-60's. Neoliberalism is still going strong and the only thing keeping it going is the same people obsessing over themselves and their relative position in the socio-economic ladder.

I've embraced my alienation from other people and society. Don't really feel much regret or anger over it. It's just who I am, and if I am what I am, then that's all that I 'yam.

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