I suppose I'm more patriotic than I thought, and unlike Michael (who clearly only seems to care about himself and his stuff rather than his country), I do care about our laws being overruled by EU laws. It's frankly shameful that some Brits have no respect for the one thousand years of unbroken development of our common law. — WhiskeyWhiskers
Britain has no chance to win the out vote :p . Some EU immigrants (who are Residents) can vote, and they will all vote against leaving. Historical Britain is fucked.So, how are you going to vote, and why? Or, if that question doesn't apply, then how would you vote? — Sapientia
Let's kick ehm out, let's kick ehm out! ;) (at least those refugees are conservatives! :p )Maybe if enough of these lexit left-wingers left Europe, there would be room for all the refugees.
/s — darthbarracuda
What I think is stupid is a willingness to put national pride or historical respect above practical benefits. — Michael
It [the European Union] began life as a cartel of heavy industry (coal and steel, then car manufacturers, later co-opting farmers, hi-tech industries and others). Like all cartels, the idea was to manipulate prices and to redistribute the resulting profits through a purpose-built, Brussels-based bureaucracy.
This European cartel and the bureaucrats who administered it feared the demos and despised the idea of government by the people, just like the administrators of oil producers Opec, or indeed any corporation, does. Patiently and methodically, a process of depoliticising decision-making was put in place, the result a relentless drive towards taking the “demos” out of “democracy”, at least as far as the EU was concerned, and cloaking all policy-making in a pervasive pseudo-technocratic fatalism. National politicians were rewarded handsomely for their acquiescence to turning the commission, the Council, Ecofin (EU finance ministers), the Eurogroup (eurozone finance ministers) and the European Central Bank into politics-free, democracy-free, zones. Anyone opposing the process was labelled “un-European” and treated as a jarring dissonance.
This is, in an important respect, the deeper cause of the aversion that many in Britain instinctively harbour for the EU. And they are right: the price of de-politicising political decisions has been not merely the defeat of democracy at EU level but also poor economic policies throughout Europe. — Varoufakis
Also, don't dismiss the conservative case against the EU. There seem to be more conservatives than leftists making the same pro-democracy case against the EU that Tony Benn was making right up until his death. It's not really a left-right issue. And unlike the SWP, I don't think a specifically anti-capitalist campaign for exit is wise or realistic. There is, currently, no alternative to capitalism, and the best results for Europe will be founded on revitalized investment and growth. — jamalrob
I also don't agree that there's no alternative to capitalism. Of course there are alternatives - and that's plural, because there is not just a single alternative, but rather multiple alternatives. I'm guessing that you mean that there are no better alternatives, but I doubt whether you're justified in reaching that conclusion. You would have had to have done a heck of a lot of work to rule out every possible alternative. — Sapientia
We should form the United States of Europe, and become the next global superpower. That's the only chance we have against Russia, who is threatening our borders. If Europe unites, it will be stronger than the USA - then nobody will dare threaten us. Russia and the USA both want a divided Europe, because we would be too powerful if we are united. — Agustino
You've interpreted me in an oddly literal fashion. — jamalrob
I mean there is no realistic prospect of replacing capitalism and there is no good plan for how to replace capitalism or for what to replace it with. — jamalrob
One can imagine things, speculate about what might work and how it might be achieved, but until there is a concerted and popular social movement with a good plan, it's utopian pie in the sky. — jamalrob
As for left and right, right-wingers will hang their positions on the referendum just as left-wingers do (like the SWP), but my point was that the core issue, that of sovereignty and democracy, is not left-right (even if it is treated that way). — jamalrob
If people left their pride, then they would easily choose this option, as we would all become stronger.because of the differences between the nations, and it could go badly wrong in various ways. — Sapientia
With forming a USE? Why?And I disagree with it in principle, anyway. — Sapientia
Nooooo, they've only annexed Crimea, terrorised Ukraine, threatened to attack Poland for the anti-missile shield, etc.Let's not trigger another Cold War. And Russia hasn't done anything in recent years that has posed a serious direct threat to our borders. — Sapientia
@jamalrob - I'm really starting to need an eye rolling emoticon, would this be possible pretty please? :DThe brief crossing of airspace is either political posturing or has a reasonable explanation. — Sapientia
If people left their pride, then they would easily choose this option, as we would all become stronger. — Agustino
With forming a USE? Why? — Agustino
Nooooo, they've only annexed Crimea, terrorised Ukraine, threatened to attack Poland for the anti-missile shield, etc. — Agustino
Well, I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, no alternative has yet to definitively overturn capitalism. And that's hardly surprising. — Sapientia
But that's obvious, and it wasn't my point, which was that there is, currently, no realistic alternative to capitalism--which in this context means that there is no widespread social movement with a definite plan for to how to organize society in the absence of capitalism, or for how the necessary transition would take place. — jamalrob
Ok, but that's also pretty obvious. — Sapientia
First, it doesn't seem obvious to people like the SWP and other far left groups, who often talk as if the revolution is around the corner and as if there were still a militant revolutionary socialist proletariat, in Marx's sense, preparing to grab the reins of power.
Second, the point was meant to support my view that the SWP's focus on a particularly anti-capitalist campaign for exit is misjudged. And that was meant to support my view that the issue is best seen as neither left nor right. — jamalrob
Some EU immigrants (who are Residents) can vote, and they will all vote against leaving. Historical Britain is fucked. — Agustino
A UK exit from the European Union could wipe thousands of pounds off house values over the next three years, estate agents have claimed.
Homeowners in London could lose as much as £7,500, while homes elsewhere in the UK could lose £2,300, the National Association of Estate Agents said.
The report, jointly commissioned by the Association of Residential Letting Agents, said rents could also fall.
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