Thoughts? — Agustino
And the UK Conservatives pretty much remain as neoliberal as ever, except in a more underhanded fashion. — Agustino
Thoughts? — Agustino
Answer: no.Can you think of any leader of either country winding back the neoliberal project in any meaningful fashion since then? — apokrisis
Yes, but I don't think the neoliberal elites will allow that to happen that easily. Fascism and statism, among other things, means their destruction.Trump feels like society nervously making the first preparations to turn fascist and statist when the current economic illusion actually collapses. The winners and losers are being lined up in readiness, the social lines drawn, for when it all turns inward and nasty. — apokrisis
Neoliberal - I identify those people very clearly. They love the fall of the Berlin wall, the opening of the markets, pro-globalisation, hate Trump, are entirely for religious unitarianism (Allah = Christian God, etc.), some of them made quite a bit of money, have loose moral values, etc. etc.I think "neoliberalism" is a term almost devoid of meaning, as I've never seen anyone positively identify as a neoliberal, and it seems to be used most often as a pejorative term for capitalism or free markets by the left. — Thorongil
Nope, that doesn't follow. Just because they're not aware of a series of presuppositions, ways of thinking, and ways of living that they share does not mean that they don't have this in common. In fact, quite the contrary - given that neoliberalism has infiltrated both the right and the left, it will be what forms the common framework of shared assumptions under which both parties operate. The Republicans hate Trump, and the Democrats also hate Trump. I'm talking about the parties now. That's why McCain so easily shakes hands with Joe Biden, or Bob Corker wants Trump out as much as Sanders.There's plenty of that going on all the time. I care that about whether anyone has himself identified as a neoliberal. If no one does, then it's a term of abuse, pure and simple. — Thorongil
It seems to me that today both the right-wing and the left-wing pretty much peddle a neoliberal set of values, including political correctness, identity politics, what's good for the market is good for the people, consumerism, globalisation, sexual promiscuity, etc. — Agustino
Yes and no with regards to PC, IP and SP. They are more peripheral in the sense that they are not the causes of the others. But they are intimately related with what you call the core issues. For example, PC is something that is used to promote globalisation and what it entails - cultural diversity, religious tolerance, pro-immigration, pro-global trade, anti-protectionism. And IP is much the same. With regards to sexual mores, it's also not difficult to see how sexual promiscuity becomes the sine qua non condition of flourishing for consumerism. So it's not a mystery at all that we noticed this decrease in the values of sexual mores (despite the increase in relationship instability) that is correlated with consumerism, the two go hand in hand. Consumerism inherently destroys moral structures and breeds instability."...what's good for the market is good for the people, consumerism, and globalization" seem like the core issues. "...political correctness, identity politics, and sexual promiscuity are epiphenomenal and peripheral — Bitter Crank
I'm not talking about that, just the cultural attitude vis-a-vis promiscuity.Most people actually aren't all that promiscuous. — Bitter Crank
Yes, exactly.Consumerism presents a special problem. Were a few hundred million people to commence living in an economically and environmentally sustainable way, the world economy would probably dive into a recession. Consumerism drives the growth of the world economy. I don't know what the solution to this problem is. — Bitter Crank
So the word is a strawman because some people use it in a way that you don't like? That's why it carries a danger of being a strawman? :sThe word is used almost exclusively by left wing journalists and Marxist economists. As such, it carries with it the danger of being a strawman. In fact, I think it is just this. Your comments don't dissuade me from this impression. — Thorongil
Funnily enough, you too are a neoliberal. In fact, it is exactly your type that I define as neoliberal, including your approach to religion, capitalism, etc.So - decentralisation, global localism, efficient downsizing, distributed networks of production and distribution. — Wayfarer
The only real option is the system of control run by the military. I mean what other alternative is there? There have only ever been two sources of power in this world, capital and military. So if capital implodes on itself, it is only sensible that the military will be the one to step in and prevent everything from falling apart - they will also have the justification to step in, since well, otherwise everything falls apart.As well as the question of how best politically to manage the puncturing of the illusion. What system of control should best kick in there? — apokrisis
No, it's not about that, but the thing is that you're not the first person in your age group 50+ who I've met who thinks exactly the same way. You all miss the golden days of the fall of the Berlin wall, how we are all becoming one humanity, New Ageism, etc. etc. There is a reason why you cannot stand Donald Trump, and that is precisely because in some regards he is dynamite in the neoliberal system. He is part of what both Democrats and Republicans agree that is inadmissible. All the other disagreements between the two parties are superficial compared to this fundamental agreement.Stone her! Stone her! — Wayfarer
No, it's not about that, but the thing is that you're not the first person in your age group 50+ who I've met who thinks exactly the same way. You all miss the golden days of the fall of the Berlin wall, how we are all becoming one humanity, New Ageism, etc. etc. There is a reason why you cannot stand Donald Trump, and that is precisely because in some regards he is dynamite in the neoliberal system. He is part of what both Democrats and Republicans agree that is inadmissible. All the other disagreements between the two parties are superficial compared to this fundamental agreement. — Agustino
Because it seeks to make everyone into a wage-slave, who consumes more and more products, has no morality but that which increases consumption and is a servant to the market. It was Lenin who said that "all official and liberal science defends wage slavery", and I think he was right. Look at what our Universities are doing. Today, they are literarily in the business of producing wage-slaves.Why is neoliberalism undesirable? — sime
I didn't say anything was bad now, I just made a remark about what symbolisms the neoliberals hearken back to. We can discuss if it was good or bad though if you want.what on earth was bad about the fall of the Berlin Wall? — sime
He most likely would have, of course.IF the Berlin Wall had collapsed under Trump's watch, are you telling me he wouldn't be taking all the credit for it? — sime
Even Fox is against Trump, or at least not fully positive. There are a lot of Republican interests that are opposed to Trump. Really, it would be fair to say that both parties are against Trump, just that the Republicans seek to use him support some of their interests.And in terms of policies that Trump supports or is prepared to sign, and the politicians and media organisations he works with, how exactly is it that he is dynamite in the neoliberal system? — sime
So the word is a strawman because some people use it in a way that you don't like? That's why it carries a danger of being a strawman? — Agustino
but most neoliberals I know are leftists, not rightists. The right neoliberals are less common today than in the past, but the left ones are a lot more common. — Agustino
political correctness, identity politics, what's good for the market is good for the people, consumerism, globalisation, sexual promiscuity — Agustino
From this forum? I was saying mostly people I know from real life, but from this forum Wayfarer, Banno, VagabondSpectre. Despite the many disagreements these three have, there is major agreement over some essentials.Who are left wing neoliberals? — Thorongil
No they don't.Do they identify as such? — Thorongil
Possibly Hanover, though I'm not sure about him.Who are the right wing neoliberals? — Thorongil
On this forum, no one, but there's not many right-wingers here. I'm tempted to say apokrisis, but not sure if it's best to identify him as right-wing. He sounds like neither.Finally, who are the right wingers, besides yourself, who criticize neoliberalism? — Thorongil
Yes, they are being contradictory.There are conservatives who support the free market, consumerism, and globalism while decrying political correctness, ID politics, and sexual promiscuity. — Thorongil
Hmm okay, that's like liking one effect, but hating the other effects and the cause too.There are politically correct identitarian leftists who loathe the free market, consumerism, and globalism. — Thorongil
From this forum? — Agustino
Yes, they are being contradictory. — Agustino
Hmm okay, that's like liking one effect, but hating the other effects and the cause too. — Agustino
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