free market, consumerism, and globalism — Thorongil
:s that makes no sense. The logic of free markets rewards the satisfaction of ANY desires, it does not care about morality and immorality. If hookers sell, then hookers are what will be sold.These things are neutral, though. There's no internal logic to them that "makes" them support PC, ID politics, and sexual promiscuity. It depends on the values and interests of the people who partake and contribute to them. If they're rotten, then the market will pump out rottenness. — Thorongil
So if something rewards both the moral and the immoral is that something moral? — Agustino
Right, so something that does not sanction immorality is not moral, but immoral. If I see someone rape a woman and don't intervene to stop it in any way, presuming that I can safely do it, then I am immoral.My point was that the market is amoral. It doesn't have to reward the immoral. That's entirely up to the people who interact in the market, buyers and sellers. — Thorongil
Right, hurrah for communism for turning the Soviet Union and China from completely destroyed, bankrupt nations into world superpowers :sThat said, it can be supported by appealing to its ability to lift literally billions of people out of poverty around the world, as it has done in the last century or so. — Thorongil
If I see someone rape a woman and don't intervene to stop it in any way, presuming that I can safely do it, then I am immoral. — Agustino
Right, hurrah for communism for turning the Soviet Union and China from completely destroyed, bankrupt nations into world superpowers — Agustino
No the market just puts an ad on TV showing how great having sex with that contraceptive is, how free you can be, etc. etc. It's like me telling you a lie.This assumes that everything the market allows is on a par with rape. That is patently absurd. Okay, so the market sells contraceptives. That leads to sexual promiscuity. But the market isn't putting a gun to the head of some would-be condom buyer and forcing him to buy the product and engage in immoral sexual relations. — Thorongil
I didn't talk about live, I talked about the fact that economically it did make those countries catch up a lot. China is still communist, and it's been growing a lot faster than the US.I don't get your point. Are you trying to say that the Soviet Union and China were great places to live before the economic reforms in the 1980s? — Thorongil
There is a reason why you cannot stand Donald Trump, — Agustino
Yep, sounds like I'm listening to one of my friend's 65-year-old dad.It's because he's incompetent, narcissistic. demonstrably dishonest, doesn't understand the office that he occupies, he's impulsive, erratic, chauvinist, a threat to world peace and is degrading the democracy of the US. — Wayfarer
Yes, I know I know. It's just funny listening to you people... you just simply can't understand the world anymore... you still think we're the same world that is becoming one humanity, that we're taking down walls, yadda yadda yadda :s - really, you cannot give up the times of your youth.'Everyone has a right to their own opinions, but not to their own facts" ~ Daniel Patrick Moynihan. — Wayfarer
No the market just puts an ad on TV showing how great having sex with that contraceptive is, how free you can be, etc. etc. It's like me telling you a lie. — Agustino
I didn't talk about live, I talked about the fact that economically it did make those countries catch up a lot. China is still communist, and it's been growing a lot faster than the US. — Agustino
On this forum, no one, but there's not many right-wingers here. I'm tempted to say apokrisis, but not sure if it's best to identify him as right-wing. He sounds like neither. — Agustino
Why not? — Agustino
Yes.Distributism still? — Thorongil
It's not the free market though, it's just industrialisation and mass production.I'm down with that, but it's madness to deny the enormous positive impact of the free market. — Thorongil
Well, neither China nor Russia really allowed "free market", even now. It's all a way to be able to trade with other nations. The Communist block was economically isolated, that was the problem, not lack of free markets. Rather the issue was not being able to impose your trade and your businesses and your products on other nations. That's why Russia is struggling to expand its sphere of influence today because this - favourable trade policies - are what is required in order to grow your economy. That's what America did successfully. Otherwise communist China can produce just as efficiently as the US.China is ruled by a communist party, a party that for several decades has increasingly allowed for a free market, which in turn has brought a large portion of the country out of abject poverty. That's a big difference from massive famines brought about by Mao, when the government controlled the economy and there was no free market. — Thorongil
As for people suffering under communism, it depends. Many of the peasants lived better under Communism than before. Many were brought to the cities, given housing, education etc. (my family included for example). The intellectuals, religious people, etc. suffered, but many of the peasants and poor people really did better. — Agustino
Neo-liberalism could still be done right with another crucial shift - if it is founded in a clear understanding of the limits to growth. — apokrisis
It's not the free market though, it's just industrialisation and mass production. — Agustino
China and Russia — Agustino
Lots of places, reading, thinking, can't pinpoint one particular source. — Agustino
As for the rest what? — Agustino
No, I do not think that. Why do you think it might explain it?Do you think this might explain your dismissive attitude towards democracy, which you frequently express? Along with your admiration for the 'strong man leader', which apparently you see in Trump? I mean, if that is the case, then really it would save everyone here a lot of pointless arguments. — Wayfarer
Has nothing to do with anything. If I'm working for the government, charged to open a factory and get it going, I'll do my work the same way and even better than if I'm an entrepreneur on my own. Government support always helps one be bold.Don't be silly. Economic markets largely free of government influence allowed for industrialization. — Thorongil
Nope, opening up trade with the world did that.I never said they had purely free markets. My point was that their expanding the free market since the 1980s has brought economic prosperity they were unable to achieve with a more robust state-controlled economy. — Thorongil
They are just the necessary conditions for globalisation, consumerism, etc. The environmental conditions that make the former possible. Political correctness is necessary - to keep the peace now that there's many immigrants around. Identity politics is necessary - to expand the pool of labourers to women (cheaper labour too), etc.As for the rest, I am doubtful of their supposed relationship to neoliberalism. — Sapientia
If I'm working for the government, charged to open a factory and get it going, I'll do my work the same way and even better than if I'm an entrepreneur on my own. Government support always helps one be bold. — Agustino
Nope, opening up trade with the world did that. — Agustino
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