My eyes are open the entire time. — creativesoul
Seems like you have memory and perception going on at the same time. — Marchesk
We give privilege to what concerns us, the pragmatic point. — Cavacava
Pixels are simple. Computer images are complex.
Words are simple. Sentences are complex.
And so on and so forth. — Magnus Anderson
I don't think either is more right than the other. — Michael
You said:
But the point is that the tree only appears to each individual... — Janus
(My emphasis)
Not sure what the "only" is doing there, unless you meant it to imply that the tree appears different for each individual - with which I agree. You seem to want to say that each individual sees a different tree - but that's wrong, ex hypothesi. Do you want to say that ten individuals look at the same tree, but that there is no tree? How's that?
The point is, your picture of what happens when ten people look at a tree does not hang together; it is malformed. — Banno
No, it doesn't. It is seen by all the individuals. — Banno
The argument from Janus hypothesises one tree, but concludes that there are ten trading on the distinction you make. — Banno
No, there is only one tree. There are not ten trees, but ten seeings or appearances of the tree. But there are two senses of the word 'tree' in play here. One denotes the living appearance of the tree which we all may experience when we face it. The other is the logical conception of the one tree that we are all seeing. The first is "inner" to each individual's lived experience, and the second is an externalized formal principle of commonality. What other sense of 'tree' do you think there is? — Janus
One sense of 'tree' refers to the tree, the other refers to appearance/experience of the tree. So, what happens when we dispense with the one that refers to something other than the tree? — creativesoul
No, one sense refers to the tangible thing that appears to me, and the other sense refers to the idea of an identical object, that may be thought to be the same thing appearing to all of us. Of course, ultimately the two are taken to be the same, but this is just a matter of logic, not of experience. No one directly experiences the sameness of the tree that appears to all of us; we just experience features that we can agree upon, on the basis of which we infer identity. — Janus
Are we debating whether the people we see on TV are mental constructs of people on TV?
My point is that the sense of 'tree' that refers to our experience is naming our experience. The sense of 'tree' that names what we're looking at isn't.
Are we looking at our experience, or are we looking at the tree? — creativesoul
I'm looking at a TV, and I see people. What does the term "people" refer to? The TV? The pixels? My experience? The actors who are far away, doing other things than what I see them doing? — Michael
Are we looking at our experience, or are we looking at the tree? — creativesoul
How many trees are there, one or ten? — Banno
Are we looking at our experience, or are we looking at the tree? — creativesoul
Are we looking at our experience, or are we looking at the tree? — creativesoul
No, when I look at the tree I see what appears to me. I directly experience its appearing to me, I do not directly experience its appearing to others; that is an inferentially derived purported fact that is mostly just taken for granted.
There is far more "complex thought/ belief" operating in the second case — Janus
I think this is a misleading question, and highlights the "talking past each other" issue I mentioned earlier. One person is saying that all we're reading is words, and then the other person asks "are we reading about words, or are we reading about a hobbit's journey to save the world?". One person is saying that the painting is just paint, and then the other person asks "is the painting of paint, or is it of the Last Supper"? — Michael
Are we looking at our experience, or are we looking at the tree?
— creativesoul
Of course we are looking at the tree. We cannot look at our experience; our experience is the looking.
If I look at a tree and if I call it a tree, then I directly experience looking at a tree. I do not directly experience looking at an entity that also appears to others. — Janus
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