It makes no sense to talk about observing unconscious deceit in oneself. — creativesoul
There is no distinction between belief about the ineffable and the ineffable. — creativesoul
It makes no sense to talk about observing unconscious deceit in oneself. — creativesoul
IT makes perfect sense to me. I believe I have seen it in action, both in myself and others in many diverse ways. When it is observed of course it ceases to be unconscious. — Janus
There is no distinction between belief about the ineffable and the ineffable.
— creativesoul
That is really no different than saying that there is no distinction between belief about anything and the the thing the belief is about. — Janus
You might object that the ineffable is not an empirical phenomenon, so the distinction between belief and the 'thing' the belief is about does not apply. But the same applies, to give a few examples, to personal freedom, immortality, the soul or self, God, the origin of the universe, causation and determinism, consciousness and so on. The list is long and "the ineffable" is on it. We cannot say anything determinate about the ineffable but we can say many, many things that take is as their subject.
Well, if one bullshits and later comes to believe it, then they didn't believe it at first. They were aware of the fact that they did not believe what they were saying - at first. If they later come to believe the bullshit, they are not aware that they once believed otherwise. Lying is deliberately misrepresenting one's own thought/belief. So, in the case of the bullshitter who later comes to believe his/her own bullshit - after they've come to actually believe it - they are no longer lying. That holds good regardless of whether or not what they say is false/true. — creativesoul
Well, if one bullshits and later comes to believe it, then they didn't believe it at first. They were aware of the fact that they did not believe what they were saying - at first. If they later come to believe the bullshit, they are not aware that they once believed otherwise. Lying is deliberately misrepresenting one's own thought/belief. So, in the case of the bullshitter who later comes to believe his/her own bullshit - after they've come to actually believe it - they are no longer lying. That holds good regardless of whether or not what they say is false/true.
— creativesoul
You are nitpicking. Noone cares what THEY are aware of. What matters is that WE are aware of that the beliefs that they currently hold to be true were formed with the aim to deceive other people. That they forgot the origin of their beliefs does not change what the origin of their beliefs is. In fact, it strengthens it, since being unaware of your own lies makes it easier to effectively lie. — Magnus Anderson
The opinions of deceivers were formed with the goal to deceive other people. Self-deception is when these opinions that were formed with the goal to deceive other people OVERWRITE those that were formed with the goal to map reality. That's EXACTLY what deception is. The only difference is that this kind of deception is unconscious in the sense that the deceiver is not aware that he's deceiving other people. That's the only difference. — Magnus Anderson
...When you forget that you are lying you do not stop lying....
When one believes what they say they are not lying. — creativesoul
When one believes what they say they are not lying.
— creativesoul
That's not true. — Magnus Anderson
You ignore HOW and WHY a belief is created. — Magnus Anderson
That's not true. Beliefs that have been formed with the aim to deceive others are lies regardless of whether the deceiver believes in them or not. That's what a lie is: it is a belief that has been formed with the aim to deceive others. — Magnus Anderson
Let's take a gander at our respective notions of a lie. On my view, a lie is a deliberate misrepresentation of what one thinks/believes. That is the criterion, which when met, that counts as being a lie. I compare/contrast that to being honest, which is to not misrepresent what one thinks/believes. More simply put, a liar does not believe what they say, and an honest speaker does. It could also be talked about in terms os being a sincere speaker and/or being an insincere speaker. Speaking sincerely is precisely what one is doing when they're being honest, and vice-versa.
So... that's my take. What about yours? What exactly is the criterion, which when met, that counts as being a lie, and moreover how does it relate to being honest? — creativesoul
What is a lie?
Any declared description of reality that has been formed with the purpose to manipulate something (e.g. one's brain) or someone (e.g. one's neighbour.) — Magnus Anderson
I declare to the love of my life that she is the love of my life for the sole purpose of manipulating her mind into believing and/or knowing it, because she doesn't.
According to your (mis)conception of what counts as a lie, I am lying... — creativesoul
Assuming sincerity, a speaker believes what they say. An insincere speaker does not. The former is honest, and the latter is not. The former is not lying, the latter is.
It's that simple. — creativesoul
I declare to the love of my life that she is the love of my life for the sole purpose of manipulating her mind into believing and/or knowing it, because she doesn't.
According to your (mis)conception of what counts as a lie, I am lying...
— creativesoul
...That's not a lie.. ...because your description wasn't formed with the aim to manipulate a woman's mind. — Magnus Anderson
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