What is the difference between the fact that grass is green and the green grass?
Nothing. They are truth functionally equivalent. — Banno
What is the difference between the fact that grass is green and the green grass?
Nothing. They are truth functionally equivalent. — Banno
So a fact can be what is the case, and also a statement of what is the case. p as opposed to "p", an ambiguous disquatation. — Banno
A thing: a,b,c...
A predicate: F,G,H...
A fact: Fa, Ga, Hb
Facts are not things. — Banno
None of this addresses the issue. We have the statement "the grass is green" and we have the green grass. But then we also have the fact as something else. So what sort of thing is a fact, if neither an utterance nor a material object? — Michael
And if we put the original question in context, are facts observer-independent?
We can accept that material objects are observer-independent
, but given that facts aren't material objects, it doesn't then follow that facts are observer-independent.
We can certainly say that facts are dependent on material objects
, but then they might also depend on something else (e.g. statements).
"But surely facts are things," — Michael Ossipoff
A thing: a,b,c...
A predicate: F,G,H...
A fact: Fa, Ga, Hb
Facts are not things. — Banno
The error here is to think that fact has one meaning, one use, and our job is to fathom that. It ain't necessarily so.
So a fact can be what is the case, and also a statement of what is the case. p as opposed to "p", an ambiguous disquatation. — Banno
I'm not comfortable with saying facts are out there in the world. — Marchesk
There is a close relationship with facts and states of affairs, but they're not the same thing in my view. Consider that the facts can be wrong.
States of affairs can't be wrong. But what we take to be the facts can be.
This suggests that facts are observer-dependent to an extent.
A thing: a,b,c...
A predicate: F,G,H...
A fact: Fa, Ga, Hb
Facts are not things. — Banno
The question is whether the content they convey is different from each other? — Posty McPostface
Referentialy, extensionaly, they are identical. If you think there is a sense in whcih they are different it is up to you to present it. — Banno
Facts, i've been convinced, are neither true nor false - that is, truth an falsity does not apply to them. So, if you like, the difference between "the grass is green" and the green grass is that one can be true, the other just is. — Banno
the ontology of a fact has to be grounded in a statement either being true or false. — Posty McPostface
the totality of facts of either what is or is not the case, constitute the world of objects, not things. — Posty McPostface
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