I don't get how causality, time, and space are not manifest in world of appearance? It seems real in the sense that it is part of the world of appearances. — schopenhauer1
As for your second statement that time isn't real in the Kantian framework, yes I just said that when I said time doesn't exist in any absolute sense for Schopenhauer and that this follows Kantian's transcendental framework. So you seemed to restate what I said as if I did not agree with you. — schopenhauer1
Will needs time/space/causality in order for the world to be Will and Representation. Otherwise, the world is just real. You have a couple problems if you say the world is just Will and representation is not "real". Here are some problems: — schopenhauer1
2) If Will is primary and representation is an illusion or somehow subordinate or secondary, then you have to explain how it is that representation is created by Will. — schopenhauer1
So, in order to counteract this idea, we have to say that representation is not secondary, but is rather the flip side of Will that ensures that there is always an object for the subject. It was there all along. — schopenhauer1
The odd conclusion is that the first organism has to always be around as it can never be caused. — schopenhauer1
I've noticed this too. What do you make of that? Wouldn't it make since that women who are downtrodden, unemployed, socially unskilled etc. would be equally antinatalist and pessimistic?and they are mostly male...
I've noticed this too. What do you make of that? — csalisbury
It's queer how out of touch with truth women are. They live in a world of their own, and there has never been anything like it, and never can be. It's too beautiful altogether, and if they were to set it up it would go to pieces before the first sunset. Some confounded fact we men have been living contentedly with ever since the day of creation would start up and knock the whole thing over.
My reproach to the antinatalists and pessimists isn't that they're wrong, necessarily, but that denying 'the river' can only be a pose, even if sincerely meant. The river doesn't care etc. People will always have babies. It really fucking sucks to drown, but making sure to disapprove of the river while drowning isn't worth much. — csalisbury
Women have social safety nets available to them that make them live in a sort of bubble, never really experiencing the worst life has to offer unless they are violently assaulted or something like that. Men on the other hand can often expect to experience how bad life is just in virtue of being regular men....That's not the kind of thing I'm going to say in public, ever (men also can't talk about their suffering, unless in service of women), but I think most of us 'know' this pretty deeply. Men are the 'blue collar' gender, women are the 'white collar' gender.
Maybe one day we'll reach a point where everyone is settled down and all their material needs are met and they'll stop having kids altogether rather than reaching some equilbrium. I guess? It seems unlikely to me. And it also seems utterly unrelated to the pain of the antinatalists you mention. Why specifically cite the impoverished, the destitute etc when it seems like the key to antinatalism's success is being happy and well-off? Most antinatalists, imo, want their pain recognized.That's what it's about.it turns out that when people settle down and their material circumstances are taken care of, they stop having children, and a stable happy society tends toward a birth rate that's lower than replacement.
Huh, yeah, I'm not going to scold you out of political correctness or anything like that, what's true is true, but what you're saying doesn't align with my experience. Do you have any sisters or many close female friends? — csalisbury
Maybe one day we'll reach a point where everyone is settled down and all their material needs are met and they'll stop having kids altogether rather than reaching some equilbrium. I guess? — csalisbury
The best way I can try to put it is this. Men suffer in feeling a kind of existential displacement. They feel fundamentally alone, not at home in the world, and are hurt because deep down they have (and feel like they have) nothing. The best way I can try to put it is this. Men suffer in feeling a kind of existential displacement.
I've mentioned that before, I think, here or on the other forum and I've also mentioned my favorite anecdote - Cioran's letter to someone or other about seeing Beckett on a park bench and being just bowled over with envy for how deeply he appeared to be in despair. Susan Sontag, apropos of Cioran, describes the pessimistic style as often veering dangerously close to a 'coquettishness of the void.' . One becomes invested in one's pose and routine, which begins earnestly, but which becomes a well-oiled machine that runs on examples and aestheticizations of suffering. To quote Beckett: ''I must have got embroiled in a kind of inverted spiral, I mean one the coils of which, instead of widening more and more, grew narrower and narrower and finally, given the kind of space in which I was supposed to evolve, would come to an end for lack of room" — csalisbury
Do you think it's possible that you associate this existential displacement with men because you discuss these issues mostly with men? — csalisbury
Most antinatalists, imo, want their pain recognized.That's what it's about. — csalisbury
(there are just enough breaths that the river gives you to believe that pulling your head above water is a sot of 'gift' that the river gives you, notwithstanding it's the river drowning you to begin with). — The Great Whatever
What I’ve noticed at readings, is that the people who seem most enthusiastic and moved by it are young men. Which I guess I can understand — I think it’s a fairly male book, and I think it’s a fairly nerdy book.
Fiction is one of the few experiences where loneliness can be both confronted and relieved. Drugs, movies where stuff blows up, loud parties — all these chase away loneliness by making me forget my name’s Dave and I live in a one-by-one box of bone no other party can penetrate or know. Fiction, poetry, music, really deep serious sex, and, in various ways, religion — these are the places (for me) where loneliness is countenanced, stared down, transfigured, treated.
Feminists are always saying this. Feminists are saying white males say, 'Okay, I'm going to sit down and write this enormous book and impose my phallus on the consciousness of the world.'
I don't know, most of the women I've talked to describe it a lot like this:If you ask a woman what she thinks being lonely is, and a man, prepare for very different answers.
They feel fundamentally alone, not at home in the world, and are hurt because deep down they have (and feel like they have) nothing.
It feels like you're conflating fuck-yeah tumblr feminism with women as a whole, kinda. I don't like fuck-yeah tumblr feminism either. — csalisbury
Clearly there's an asymmetry between pleasure and pain. It may be difficult to characterize, but I'm convinced that the latter is in some sense the servant of the former. In order to augment pain, having a carrot on a stick (pleasure) helps. — The Great Whatever
Of course. Pleasure is contingent upon structural imperfections. But it nevertheless is pleasure independent of the relief it often accompanies. Which is why the river allowing you a couple gasps of air is not a sufficient analogy. Pleasure motivates continual existence, pain forces it. — darthbarracuda
I don't know, man, I think you might be a little depressed and unable to experience pleasure independent of pain. It's inconceivable to you. — darthbarracuda
But I just ate a bowl of ice cream. That was nice. — darthbarracuda
Heh. I doubt it. — The Great Whatever
But I barely know that world anymore. You may be right in terms of academia too, I'm not sure. — csalisbury
It's interesting you think it's an essential gender divide. Men by and large don't hit rock bottom either. — csalisbury
I pass homeless women every day on my walk to work. — csalisbury
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