The biggest problem with women's sports

WISDOMfromPO-MO

You do not have to read this opinion column titled "Five Myths About Women's Sports" or the reader comments that follow it, like I did. But it wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't hurt to skim them at least.

Anyway, I am sure that the author was working with limited space and was not trying to present anything exhaustive or of the highest priority. Nonetheless, as a 45-year-old man who has, as far back as I can remember, enjoyed watching and following women's sports (I even checked the other day on a basketball coach I have followed the career of and learned, disappointingly, that she had been fired this past March), I want to point out a huge omission: a fan/spectator/consumer, male or female, cannot watch or follow women's sports very long without gender politics being brought up.

Gender politics seems to color media coverage of women's sports. Gender politics seems to color the conduct of women's sports. I don't have an undergraduate, let alone advanced, degree in communications, sociology, or anything like that, but I would not be surprised to find that the final product, the way that it is (or is not) marketed, and the way that it comes across to consumers and the general public are heavily influenced by that background. Every minute that is spent talking about the disparity in coverage and marketing between men's and women's sports, the battles that women have fought to participate in the male-dominated world of sports, etc. is a minute that could instead be spent talking about the female athletes, their skill sets, their personalities, their love of the game, their rivalries, etc. Every minute on the air and inch on the page--and they are scarce minutes and space with a lot of different actors competing for the consumer's time and money--spent waging gender politics could be spent giving people reasons to appreciate the female athletes, their coaches and their sports.

It is frustrating.

Nothing illustrates it better than the coverage of the NCAA Women's Final Four a few years ago. If I recall correctly, 3 of the 4 schools were in their first Final Four. That says that the game was growing. But what did I find people making a big deal about and the media reporting on? People were making a big deal about how for the first time all of the head coaches in the Women's Final Four were men. As the game had grown, the percentage of head coaches who were female had declined, one story reported. Sigh.

Men are the overwhelming majority of sports viewers/listeners. I can't provide evidence that making women's sports about gender politics turns men off. But I would wager every penny that I am worth that it does not help. Instead of being presented as something to celebrate, appreciate and enjoy in their own right, women's sports are presented as a struggle against oppression, a struggle against double standards, the result of decades of legal and political fights, evidence of misogyny, etc., etc.

I don't have an MBA, but does it take an MBA to say that if you are trying to sell a product you should present it in a positive light?

I do not have the habit of being overcome by cynicism. But the little bit of cynicism in me is tempted to wonder if women's sports as we know them have nothing to do with sports or female athletes and are nothing more than a platform that has been manufactured to advance certain ideologies.

T Clark

Well, there's Women's Sports and then there's women's sports. Or maybe girls sports. The important thing about girl's sports is the same as for boy's sports - children and young adults learning how to handle their bodies, work with others, get knocked around, compete, and win and lose. For whatever social, physical, and temperamental reasons, I think that comes more easily for boys.

I played American football in school, along with some other sports, because my father wanted me to. I didn't like it and I stunk at it. Even so, you learn something important about yourself and your body when you bash yourself over and over again into another person. I remember watching a girl's high school soccer game with a neighbor. His daughter was a good player and we were watching her. It made me feel good to see her playing skillfully and aggressively, using her body to push, block, and keep other girls away from the ball. I don't think girls get a chance to do that as much as boys do. In the US we have Title IX, a law that requires school athletic programs to offer as many opportunities for girls as for boys. I can't think of a more powerful way to promote respect for girls and women.

As for Women's Sports, or Men's Sports for that matter, who cares? I guess, given the state of our society, the case can be made that skilled, driven, and competitive women can act as role models for girls.

Buxtebuddha

↪WISDOMfromPO-MO

The fundamental issue with a lot of women's sports is the quality of the play. As a soccer fan, it's both comical and sad how rubbish the play is. It's Sunday league terrible. And when you're attempting to sell a product, as you've worded it, that product needs to be worth investing in. You can come up with all the advertising, branding, and so on, but it's moot if what is actually watched is garbage. Maybe some people don't watch women's sports because they're sexist or something, but I'm not so sure. I'd watch WNBA, for example, if I enjoyed watching the play. But I don't, so I don't watch it. Just as I don't watch semi-pro footballers fumbling around.

I'd say that the most watched and appreciated women's sports are those where the line between the genders is the least obvious. I suppose if you watch sports just to watch sports it doesn't matter, but if you're someone like me who likes to watch it for the tactics first and the emotions second, I'm not going to watch it because it's crap.

I do not have the habit of being overcome by cynicism. But the little bit of cynicism in me is tempted to wonder if women's sports as we know them have nothing to do with sports or female athletes and are nothing more than a platform that has been manufactured to advance certain ideologies. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

That's stretching it, in my opinion. What women sports/female athletes do you have in mind here?

Marchesk

↪Buxtebuddha

I find women's tennis enjoyable, but basketball never appealed to me. It's just too different from the men's play (which is super skilled and athletic in comparison). But I can watch women run track, even though their times are slower.

This isn't to say that WNBA or female college basketball players aren't skilled. They are. But the men at that level are something else. Not all of them. Some are there for size or as specialists. But enough of the men are huge outliers compared to the general population.

Akanthinos

↪WISDOMfromPO-MO

Honest question here : why the obsession with gender politics? The last 3 threads I've seen you start was clearly and specifically about it. This is a philosophy forum. Obviously any gender politic issue can be thematized as a political philosophy problem, or a philosophy of sociology issue, but there's little of that at play in your posts.

I'm not trying to shame you, just wondering what is the motivation here.

tim wood

In the US we have Title IX, a law that requires school athletic programs to offer as many opportunities for girls as for boys. I can't think of a more powerful way to promote respect for girls and women.

As for Women's Sports, or Men's Sports for that matter, who cares? I guess, given the state of our society, the case can be made that skilled, driven, and competitive women can act as role models for girls. — T Clark

Good post! The only point I have here is that capital-W/M sports are a business, and the participants are entertainers. Arguably they are and should be subject to the laws of the market place.

T Clark

Honest question here : why the obsession with gender politics? The last 3 threads I've seen you start was clearly and specifically about it. This is a philosophy forum. Obviously any gender politic issue can be thematized as a political philosophy problem, or a philosophy of sociology issue, but there's little of that at play in your posts.

I'm not trying to shame you, just wondering what is the motivation here. — Akanthinos

I don't know you and haven't read your other posts, but this doesn't seem like an honest question to me.

Akanthinos

I don't know you and haven't read your other posts, but this doesn't seem like an honest question to me. — T Clark

4 out of the 10 last threads started by WisdomfromPOMO are about gender politics. Women also commit gun rampages. How women's sport is boring because of gender. So on and so on.

Clearly there's an angle here, I'm just wondering how it all relates to philosophy...?

T Clark

4 out of the 10 last threads started by WisdomfromPOMO are about gender politics. Women also commit gun rampages. How women's sport is boring because of gender. So on and so on.

Clearly there's an angle here, I'm just wondering how it all relates to philosophy...? — Akanthinos

WfPM's original post was about women's sports. Your posts don't respond to what she wrote or add anything new. Your appropriate role as a participant in this thread is to respond to what the poster has written, not trying to sidetrack the discussion by questioning her motivations.

Akanthinos

↪T Clark

Get over yourself. You aren't a mod.
This has exactly nothing to do with political philosophy.

T Clark

Get over yourself. You aren't a mod.
This has exactly nothing to do with political philosophy. — Akanthinos

Appeal to motive fallacy – a subtype of ad hominem that dismisses an idea by questioning the motives of its proposer.

Akanthinos

↪T Clark

This is a political philosophy subforum. This is not a political philosophy issue. This is something that belongs in a blog. It does not invite philosophical discussion of political matters.

Janus

Your posts don't respond to what she wrote or add anything new. — T Clark

Don't you mean "what he wrote"?

Nonetheless, as a 45-year-old man who has, as far back as I can remember, enjoyed watching and following women's sports — WISDOMfromPO-MO

T Clark

Don't you mean "what he wrote"? — Janus

You are correct.

T Clark

Good post! The only point I have here is that capital-W/M sports are a business, and the participants are entertainers. Arguably they are and should be subject to the laws of the market place. — tim wood

I would like to follow up on this with something I remember from when my 28 year old son was about 7 or 8 years old. Tara Lipinski won the gold medal in figure skating in 1998 and she was very prominent in the news. I was at basketball practice with my son. I was watching him and one of his teammates, Chris. Both of them were big boys, Chris in particular. His dad was tall and very big; quiet with a heavy beard, what we used to call a Grizzly Adams type. You could see that Chris was going to grow up to be just like him.

The coach was teaching a defensive set-up. Once he told the boys what to do, he left them while he talked to some other boys about their positions. Chris was fidgety and obviously bored just standing there, so he started twirling around. Then he said "Look at me, I'm Tara Lipinski!" I think that says everything that needs to be said about women's sports.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

And when you're attempting to sell a product, as you've worded it, that product needs to be worth investing in. You can come up with all the advertising, branding, and so on, but it's moot if what is actually watched is garbage. Maybe some people don't watch women's sports because they're sexist or something, but I'm not so sure. — Buxtebuddha

In the big college town where I live I have seen women's college basketball go from being barely on anybody's radar to being a regular sports page cover story. I have seen it go from crowds in the low hundreds and tickets for pocket change to regular, deafeningly loud crowds in the thousands and much higher ticket prices.

What changed? A new athletics director who wanted the school to be competitive and relevant in all sports, not just football and men's basketball.

I witnessed first hand the surge and sustained interest in women's college basketball that radio ads, billboards, and a well-publicized national search for an elite head coach led to.

See what happens when you focus the attention on the product and not on glass ceilings?

WISDOMfromPO-MO

"I do think there’s a huge issue in figure skating and in gymnastics about how our culture, the society at large, views these girls and young women.

How so?

I think that we expect them to be these “perfect” girls. I think that during the time over the last many decades, in which women athletes weren’t very well-accepted because they looked “too masculine, too strong,” whether they were basketball players or track athletes, the softball players, gymnasts were safe athletes. We were all really comfortable with a little girl in a little leotard who looked like she’s just romping on a playground and has these amazing, unbelievably technical skills. They’ve got their ponytails and little sparkle in their hair, and they’re barefoot, and they have their big ol’ burly coach there ready to give them a big hug. It all looks so wholesome and familial, and I think society is super, super comfortable with athletes who are like that. I mean, they’re literally wearing costumes and smiling as they’re doing all this. It’s bizarre in a lot of ways.

What’s sad about it is that they are among the greatest athletes you are ever going to see on Earth, and I don’t think they get as much respect for what it takes to do what they do because it’s all so prettied up." -- Beyond Larry Nassar

Further evidence that we have a long way to go before the competitions themselves and abilities of the athletes themselves are what women's sports are known for.

That competition and ability are clearly there, but little is spent talking about them.

Talk about what makes Elena Delle Donne a prolific scorer, not about gender politics, and more people will start to see women's sports for what they really are.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Well, there's Women's Sports and then there's women's sports. Or maybe girls sports. The important thing about girl's sports is the same as for boy's sports - children and young adults learning how to handle their bodies, work with others, get knocked around, compete, and win and lose. For whatever social, physical, and temperamental reasons, I think that comes more easily for boys. — T Clark

Sounds like it wasn't difficult for these girls:

"He came over here after Nadia Comaneci, and he brought his system with him, which was a system of abuse. His job, and he says this, his job was to create gymnasts, not to create healthy young women. And other coaches followed his lead. American coaches followed his lead, because, frankly, it worked. He did create great gymnasts. Of course, we didn’t see all the bodies of the girls who didn’t make it. He would berate, belittle them, throw them out of the gym, call them fat, call them lazy, call them weak, and if parents didn’t like it, he’d say, “Go ahead. Take your daughter. Take her someplace else.”

These girls want this so much. They’re so driven. They’re not like the rest of us, as any great athlete isn’t like the rest of us. They are willing to do whatever it takes to be the best in the world and to follow their dreams. The parents get on that bandwagon with them, and they get as sucked into this culture as their daughters, and they stop being the parent and just go along with whatever the coach is telling them because they don’t know anything about gymnastics. All the other parents are doing the same thing they’re doing." -- Beyond Larry Nassar

WISDOMfromPO-MO

I'd say that the most watched and appreciated women's sports are those where the line between the genders is the least obvious. — Buxtebuddha

This seems to clearly show that that is not true:

"I do think there’s a huge issue in figure skating and in gymnastics about how our culture, the society at large, views these girls and young women.

How so?

I think that we expect them to be these “perfect” girls. I think that during the time over the last many decades, in which women athletes weren’t very well-accepted because they looked “too masculine, too strong,” whether they were basketball players or track athletes, the softball players, gymnasts were safe athletes. We were all really comfortable with a little girl in a little leotard who looked like she’s just romping on a playground and has these amazing, unbelievably technical skills. They’ve got their ponytails and little sparkle in their hair, and they’re barefoot, and they have their big ol’ burly coach there ready to give them a big hug. It all looks so wholesome and familial, and I think society is super, super comfortable with athletes who are like that. I mean, they’re literally wearing costumes and smiling as they’re doing all this. It’s bizarre in a lot of ways.

What’s sad about it is that they are among the greatest athletes you are ever going to see on Earth, and I don’t think they get as much respect for what it takes to do what they do because it’s all so prettied up." -- Beyond Larry Nassar

Roke

↪Akanthinos

Because society at large is obsessed with it right now and is pushing a narrative laced with misplaced guilt and overcompensation. Cognitive dissonance motivates posting.

I think if you genuinely appreciate women, you don't need them to be just like men. The outlier men are way better than the outlier women at (most) sports. It's trivially true. When someone is inclined to perform mental gymnastics to reframe that (a very common reaction today), I think it betrays a deepseeded and pernicious form of misogyny.

BC

Of course women's sport teams are not going to perform the way men's teams perform. Men's athletics, standards of performance, levels of fan enthusiasm, money spent on men's athletics, etc. has a long history.

Major women's athletics is a fairly new thing. Large numbers of women athletes have not been celebrated, fussed over, had money lavished on their needs and so forth, over the last century. Given equivalent funding, institutional support, fan-base development, and all that, women's sport will eventually be more like men's sport -- not the same sized bodies, or testosterone driven athletes--but well funded athletes who have been working on their skills since they were in kindergarten.

I don't think professional sports is worth the amount of money expended on it, but if people like it, money will get spent. But be careful what you pray for.

Professional men's athletics do absolutely nothing for the health of 99.9% of fans. Professional women's athletics are going to do absolutely nothing for the health of 99.9% of fans, either. What is more important -- much more important -- is that athletic activity be democratized in grade school, high school, college, and in adult life so that more people participate in active life styles.

Focusing a lot of money and attention on 1/10th of 1 percent of the population to play professional sports and neglecting the other 99.9% just isn't a good idea. Better that millions of girls and boys have programs to help them find ways to be active and physically fit than always grooming the cream of the crop from little league on up to the major leagues.

By the way, the folderol going on in Minneapolis for the 52nd Super Bowl is a COLOSSAL pain in the ass. Massive traffic and transit disruptions not just on Sunday, but for the 10 days preceding the #$*&@#(@Q)$( thing. Security checks (backpacks, purses, open your coat please...) as one walks down the street.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Of course women's sport teams are not going to perform the way men's teams perform. Men's athletics, standards of performance, levels of fan enthusiasm, money spent on men's athletics, etc. has a long history.

Major women's athletics is a fairly new thing. Large numbers of women athletes have not been celebrated, fussed over, had money lavished on their needs and so forth, over the last century. Given equivalent funding, institutional support, fan-base development, and all that, women's sport will eventually be more like men's sport -- not the same sized bodies, or testosterone driven athletes--but well funded athletes who have been working on their skills since they were in kindergarten.

I don't think professional sports is worth the amount of money expended on it, but if people like it, money will get spent. But be careful what you pray for.

Professional men's athletics do absolutely nothing for the health of 99.9% of fans. Professional women's athletics are going to do absolutely nothing for the health of 99.9% of fans, either. What is more important -- much more important -- is that athletic activity be democratized in grade school, high school, college, and in adult life so that more people participate in active life styles.

Focusing a lot of money and attention on 1/10th of 1 percent of the population to play professional sports and neglecting the other 99.9% just isn't a good idea. Better that millions of girls and boys have programs to help them find ways to be active and physically fit than always grooming the cream of the crop from little league on up to the major leagues. — Bitter Crank

All excellent points.

I don't know the history very well, but it seems to me like in the U.S. organized sports were conceived by clubs, fraternities, etc. with close-knit relationships with their communities. The typical church softball league of today was the original character of all of organized sports in the U.S. Remnants, such as the citizens of Green Bay, WI owning the Green Bay Packers, can still be seen. Basketball was invented for members of a Springfield, MA YMCA, not as a commodity for Wall Street to market and profit greatly from.

It sounds to me, based on my limited knowledge of the history, that sports in the U.S. had well-democratized origins. I don't see any reason why that culture could not be restored--we have tons more wealth and infrastructure now.

I'm not a medical doctor or an athletic trainer, but if we want everybody to have an active lifestyle it seems to me that it is already available to everybody: step outside and start walking. It may not give anybody the well-sculpted physique that the fitness industry promises with every new home exercise product being pitched. It may not offer the amenities of a gym membership, such as being able to watch the Super Bowl on a large TV while on a treadmill, or grabbing a fresh smoothie on the way back to the office. But unless one lives where stepping outside could mean being in the line of gunfire, or unless one is living in Fargo, ND in early February, there is nothing stopping him, her or anybody else from stepping outside and going for a brisk walk. I see women outside jogging all of the time, so it must not be unsafe for them to be outside. And it costs no money. A bicycle costs money. Walking costs no money. Almost anybody can be active by going for a walk. No need to organize leagues, train officials, etc. either.

Just be sure to use sunscreen and wear clothing and eyewear to protect you from the sun.

By the way, the folderol going on in Minneapolis for the 52nd Super Bowl is a COLOSSAL pain in the ass. Massive traffic and transit disruptions not just on Sunday, but for the 10 days preceding the #$*&@#(@Q)$( thing. Security checks (backpacks, purses, open your coat please...) as one walks down the street. — Bitter Crank

Hopefully the city at least didn't have to tear down streetlights at the expense of local taxpayers. I have heard that that is part of the cost of being a campaign stop during a Presidential election.

Then again, a campaign stop is for a few hours. Hosting a Super Bowl is for two weeks.

Consider it a taxpayer-funded, hands-on philosophy lesson: what life would be like under a totalitarian police state, or something like that.

BC

I'm not a medical doctor or an athletic trainer, but if we want everybody to have an active lifestyle it seems to me that it is already available to everybody: step outside and start walking. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Walking is a good exercise, absolutely. it is important to develop habits, and in the case of young people, to give them the opportunity to develop self-confidence in their own physical abilities. Organized sports does that for a small number of students. What I would like to see in schools is a Physical education program that focuses on activities that people can do over their lifetime--like walking, jogging, running, calisthenics, yoga, weight lifting, swimming, and the like.

When I was in high school (back in the late 50s, early 60s) researchers had found that a lot of students were in poor physical condition and that a minority were in great condition. I'm sure it's gotten worse since then.

Competition is good for those who like it, but students also need to practice measuring individual progress.

I got interested in physical fitness in my mid 20s, and I found I knew very little about how to go about it. Over time I learned, but I also made some major mistakes, like discounting the value of decent running shoes.

Fargo, ND — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Speaking of Fargo, one can run in northern winters -- I liked running in cold Minnesota weather. Ice is a risk, for sure.

I think you are right about how sports were developed and played, on an ad hoc basis, by people who wanted a social and physically activity. People in small towns (at least) used to have softball teams. It was extremely informal, but people liked doing it. I don't know if they still do it.

Benkei

Dutch men aren't allowed to have any opinion on this matter since the women football team became European champions last year and the men didn't even qualify for the world championship.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

A rematch of last year's national championship game produced the first sell-out in the history of Mississippi State University women's basketball.

People don't care about the sex of the participants. If the best in the game are facing each other, people will be interested. Sex/gender does not matter:

In rematch of NCAA title game, No. 2 Miss St tops S Carolina

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Focusing a lot of money and attention on 1/10th of 1 percent of the population to play professional sports and neglecting the other 99.9% just isn't a good idea. — Bitter Crank

Something else to consider is that these days that 1/10th of 1 percent is often the product of performance-enhancing drugs, human growth hormone, etc.

Apparently a lot of people are so in need of entertainment, spectacle, domination, heroes, etc. that to meet that consumer demand organized sports has to push the envelope whatever way they can get away with. Whatever maximizes ticket sales and TV ratings.

Personally, I find it annoying to be repeatedly reminded how superhuman Tiger Woods is. Personally, I prefer a 2-1 pitchers' duel over a 10-7 home run derby that is probably the result of juiced baseballs.

That is what is great about sports like women's college basketball. It is just watching student athletes working hard and competing in a game they love while knowing that after graduation they'll go to medical school or something like that. I think that they are worth supporting. I don't think that they are the same as that 1/10th of 1 percent.

The biggest problem with women's sports

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