Why is most human behavior/interaction choreographed ? Why have we relinquished our authenticity and our sincerity ? And, by doing so, is what we have achieved worth it ? — Aurora

You can give any answer you want. Usually people just want to be in and out of the store. If you are truly interested in the clerk's day, ask. If the free sample lady says "Hi, how are you doing today!" and you aren't having a good day, just say "Not great!" and when she says "Sorry to hear that!" say, "just part of being alive" and move on.

Why is most human behavior/interaction choreographed ? Why have we relinquished our authenticity and our sincerity ? And, by doing so, is what we have achieved worth it ? — Aurora

Sometimes a question is another way of saying "hello". Especially between strangers.

Why is most human behavior/interaction choreographed ? — Aurora

Path of least resistance.

Why have we relinquished our authenticity and our sincerity? — Aurora

It's uncomfortable not to. And being sincere or "authentic" with strangers is not necessarily a good thing.

And, by doing so, is what we have achieved worth it ? — Aurora

Some sense of security / predictability.

I get the bigger issue here though, which is the danger of being on autopilot too much of the time and that danger is a sense of a receding identity. Note though that we can authentically blag our way through trivial interactions knowing that frankly we have more important things to worry about just as we can inauthentically open our hearts to strangers because we think that somehow makes us more authentic. If you are creative and original in some way this kind of stuff is likely to bother you less. But, yes, the oil that greases social interactions is distilled from the faeces of male bovines.

Why is most human behavior/interaction choreographed ? — Aurora

It is the result of schema activation. In this case, context schemata.

Nishida, H. (1999). Cultural Schema Theory: In W.B. Gudykunst (Ed.), Theorizing About Intercultural Communication, (pp. 401–418). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, Inc.

I think in your 2nd example, the customer is just nutty. So I don't think it has much to do with (in)authenticity.

Why is most human behavior/interaction choreographed ? Why have we relinquished our authenticity and our sincerity ? And, by doing so, is what we have achieved worth it ? — Aurora

You are being unnecessarily judgmental. There are many things said on a day to day basis that might be called ritualistic. That doesn't mean they aren't valuable. Saying "how are you today" isn't necessarily to be taken literally. The subtext is "I recognize you as a person and part of my community." It's polite, not because of some rigid social norm, but because it is a way of acknowledging someone's value.

But, yes, the oil that greases social interactions is distilled from the faeces of male bovines. — Baden

Huh, distilled bullshit? What is produced when bullshit is distilled? I think what is at issue here is that a complete stranger might ask you a very personal question (how are your?). If you are completely uninclined to tell that complete stranger anything personal, you shoot the shit and answer with something like "fine", "not bad" etc.. Otherwise you might actually tell that stranger something personal. The choice is yours. Most opt for the impersonal reply.

Huh, distilled bullshit? What is produced when bullshit is distilled? — Metaphysician Undercover

Wasn't that the first way of making gunpowder?

Why is most human behavior/interaction choreographed ? — Aurora

Because we are creatures of culture, and culture provides the steps of the social minuet. There are many settings where candid confessions of current circumstances are just not welcome--you provide one, the check out line. Convention provides standardized trivial conversation because neither the customer nor the clerk is really free to engage in a heartfelt conversation. For one thing, the people waiting in line behind the first customer might decide to riot if the line doesn't move forward quickly.

On the other hand, if strangers on a long bus ride decide to open up about their lives, and both are willing to engage, fine.

Why have we relinquished our authenticity and our sincerity ? And, by doing so, is what we have achieved worth it ? — Aurora

Again, we are creatures of culture as well as authentic individuals, and performing culturally devised roles is not inherently inauthentic. It CAN be inauthentic when someone can't get beyond those roles when interpersonal conversation calls for openness.

Speaking of inauthentic, "F&$king" and "a$$ho!e" strike me as inauthentic spellings for fucking and asshole. All of us are adults and our virgin ears have been pierced, so spell it out.

Your lesbian whose girlfriend cheated on her and whose female boss is an asshole will find other, better, opportunities to ventilate. When she arrives at the dyke bar that afternoon, she will find numerous women who will happily hear her complaints, buy her gin and tonics to help elicit lengthier confessions, and then gossip them about--which is also a cultural convention.

Thanks to everyone who responded ... you've given me a lot to think about. BTW, I'm new here, and I'm still getting used to the format/theme and the rules.



Bitter Crank, I esp. liked your response. My spellings were intentionally inauthentic because, on some other forums I've been on, you can get banned for using those words. I guess that's not the case here ?

And yes, the example I posted was just the simplest one I could think of. Yes, it's not that important to be authentic in a grocery store line with people behind. I think the more important cases I wanted to refer to were those from a more intimate setting, such as at a party or even a friggin Thxgiving gathering with those who are supposed to be the nearest/dearest to you.

And, in all those cases, I have noticed almost 100% inauthenticity ... posturing, maneuvering, charades, nothing heartfelt.

- Aurora

Grocery store clerk: "How are you today ?"
Customer: "Good, how are you ?"
Grocery store clerk: "Not bad. Just hanging in there." — Aurora

I associate these bullshit conversations with American salesmanship. Shallow lubricant.

Welcome to Philosophy Forum. "Bullshit" and "Asshole" are gradually entering formal English, so feel free.

Well... the question is, can people be "authentic" (whatever that actually means) in a setting they select themselves which is supposed to be "pleasant" and conducive to openness. Some people seem to have great difficulty dropping the socially expected stage role for the role they want to perform.

One expects this at work; many workplaces strongly discourage "authentic" behavior. They'd much prefer people stick to plastic masks and fake acts.

There are some people, very tightly wrapped types, who don't seem to be able to relax their defenses, take off their masks, and just be themselves. I think it must be a really very unhappy condition to live with.

There is also the fact that for some people "authentic" isn't also "nice". The "real person" can be unpleasant.

I associate these bullshit conversations with American salesmanship. Shallow lubricant. — Banno

Odd. I associate these bullshit conversations with Australian salesmanship, such as it is. Shallow lubrication seems to be sufficient for Australians.

And, in all those cases, I have noticed almost 100% inauthenticity ... posturing, maneuvering, charades, nothing heartfelt. — Aurora

It is almost always in your power to make any conversation authentic by being authentic yourself. That doesn't mean you confront others with their falsity or try to be inappropriately personal. "Authentic" doesn't mean profound or complex, it only means human. Be a human being and think of, treat, others as human beings.

You can have an authentic conversation about the weather or "How about them Red Sox." You can have an inauthentic conversation about the most personal things in your life.

I remember fondly the stroppy British style of shopkeeping that treated the customer as a necessary interruption to reading the paper. It was replaced in the seventies and eighties by enforced curtesy.

It is almost always in your power to make any conversation authentic by being authentic yourself. That doesn't mean you confront others with their falsity or try to be inappropriately personal. "Authentic" doesn't mean profound or complex, it only means human. Be a human being and think of, treat, others as human beings.

You can have an authentic conversation about the weather or "How about them Red Sox." You can have an inauthentic conversation about the most personal things in your life. — T Clark

(Y)

(and Bitter Crank)

I have only lived in Asia and the US. (I don't know how things are elsewhere)

And, I have to agree ... interaction in the US is incredibly shallow in most arenas. Forget salesmen ... that's to be expected ... but even in "friendships" and "romantic relationships", ... :(

I'm not saying this with my head up high or claiming to be some expert critic on human behavior ... I say this as someone who has lived here a long time ... and with a deep sadness ... and, to the best of my ability, neutrally.

There are some people, very tightly wrapped types, who don't seem to be able to relax their defenses, take off their masks, and just be themselves. I think it must be a really very unhappy condition to live with.

There is also the fact that for some people "authentic" isn't also "nice". The "real person" can be unpleasant. — Bitter Crank

Very true ! And yes, I feel sad for those types who can't take off the masks.

American Banks (at least the ones around here) all seem to have introduced a new policy of "light conversation" during any banking transaction. Not just "How are you today" but "Do you have any big plans for the weekend?" -- this while maintaining face to face contact, seeming to expect a verbal description of one's plans. Well, sure, big party, wild sex, but they don't happen to involve you, so why do you want to know?

Salesmanship I get. At this same bank I wanted to open an extra savings account. No big deal. The next step should have been to open the account. Instead, I was diverted to a "personal banker" who wanted to go into the saving account in excruciating detail. "We have several different kinds of saving accounts, blah blah blah." I said that opening a second account should be something that could happen at the teller counter "We want to make sure you get the best product... blah blah blah." Finally I said this was taking too long and left.

I want my barber to chat with me. Barbers can cut hair and talk at the same time. I don't want to chat with a bank teller who stops the transaction to chat. Why are they doing this? To give the overhead cameras more time to zero in on the suspects?

And, I have to agree ... interaction in the US is incredibly shallow in most arenas. — Aurora

My experience is really different from yours. I am pathologically unable not to start conversations with strangers - standing in line, sitting next to each other in airplanes, walking down the street... About all sorts of things. The weather, sure, but also their gorgeous orange jacket, the Maserati driving down the street, how beautiful their baby is. I have started many conversations with people walking their very gentle, friendly dogs. I always say - my, that's a vicious dog you have there. They laugh and we start talking. Very few people react negatively. Most of the conversations are pretty light, but sometimes they can be about serious subjects - philosophy, science. I had a great 30-minute conversation with a biomedical engineer about genetic technology a couple of weeks ago.

Almost everyone is interesting. Almost everyone has a real place inside them which is not very deeply hidden.

Almost everyone is interesting. Almost everyone has a real place inside them which is not very deeply hidden. — T Clark

Yes, I have no doubt that everyone is interesting. Where my experience differs from yours is in the second statement of yours ... in my experience, that authenticity is deeply hidden. It is so deeply hidden that it is inaccessible to most ... it's like they've forgotten it exists, thanks to the deeply ingrained societal/cultural conditioning right from birth. All in the pursuit of "fitting in".

It is no surprise that 60% of American marriages collapse within a few years. It's not rocket science to figure the following scenario:
- When two people meet and court each other, they have a rigid and impenetrable facade, giving each other the illusion of perfection ... no true feelings, no painful history, no flaws, no embarrassing habits, no weird fetishes ... no harsh realities or simple but deep truths are revealed.
- They keep up the facade, very well, for a year or two, and then the wedding bells ring. Everything's great !
- A year or two later, when the bad habits begin to emerge ... when the real person emerges ... when one has to wake up in the middle of the night and care for the other ... when one has nowhere to turn to but the other ... when the act and inauthenticity and lying takes up so much energy that it is no longer worth it, what then ?
- The two feel like "This is not the person I married. I want out." No shit, this is not the person you married ! You never got to see that person.
- Divorce lawyers get telephone calls.

Yes, I have no doubt that everyone is interesting. Where my experience differs from yours is in the second statement of yours ... in my experience, that authenticity is deeply hidden. It is so deeply hidden that it is inaccessible to most ... it's like they've forgotten it exists, thanks to the deeply ingrained societal/cultural conditioning right from birth. All in the pursuit of "fitting in".

It is no surprise that 60% of American marriages collapse within a few years. — Aurora

Well, you're changing the terms of the discussion. I wasn't, and the rest of the discussion didn't seem to be, talking about what it takes to find a person with whom you want to spend the rest of your life. I thought we were talking about regular interactions between regular people on a day to day basis.

Marriage is really hard, but that's a whole different story.

Ok, I was giving an example (i.e. marriage, where authenticity really counts ... I would think/hope ???) to illustrate my point about inauthenticity and how deeply ingrained it is in people. If the one place/situation where authenticity really counts (marriage) is not enough to crack that defensive shell/facade, then what is ?

I went off on a bit of a tangent, but it was to illustrate the main point of this post.

Why are they doing this? To give the overhead cameras more time to zero in on the suspects? — Bitter Crank

We can test for this - as the software improves, the tellers will revert to being grumpy.

Ok, I was giving an example (i.e. marriage, where authenticity really counts ... I would think/hope ???) to illustrate my point about inauthenticity and how deeply ingrained it is in people. If the one place/situation where authenticity really counts (marriage) is not enough to crack that defensive shell/facade, then what is ?

I went off on a bit of a tangent, but it was to illustrate the main point of this post. — Aurora

In my experience, which is limited to one 40 year continuing marriage plus observations of others from the outside, problems in marriages are not primarily related to inauthenticity. I think they are caused by unexpressed conditions, desires, fantasies, that marriage partners are generally not fully aware of. I remember vividly how my girlfriend's attitude towards me and our relationship changed abruptly when we got engaged. People expect things, and feel entitled to expect things, from spouses that they would not expect from lovers or friends. We can argue if you'd like about whether those expectations are reasonable, but they are there nonetheless. They can cause irreparable damage to love, friendship, and commitment.

In my experience, which is limited to one 40 year continuing marriage plus observations of others from the outside, problems in marriages are not primarily related to inauthenticity. I think they are caused by unexpressed conditions, desires, fantasies, that marriage partners are generally not fully aware of. I remember vividly how my girlfriend's attitude towards me and our relationship changed abruptly when we got engaged. People expect things, and feel entitled to expect things, from spouses that they would not expect from lovers or friends. We can argue if you'd like about whether those expectations are reasonable, but they are there nonetheless. They can cause irreparable damage to love, friendship, and commitment. — T Clark

If you've been married for 40 years, then you've got 40 years on me :) I've had one relationship my whole life, which lasted a whopping 8 months. I'll take your word for it.

I'm sure there are more issues/factors at play than mere inauthenticity, but I feel like inauthenticity is one of the most fundamental ones, because it can and does lead to things you mentioned - unexpressed feelings/desires, among several others. It's not the only problem, but it is one of the big ones.

I was describing what I have noticed, in general, in human relationships (including friendships), and my attempts at them.

I was describing what I have noticed, in general, in human relationships (including friendships), and my attempts at them. — Aurora

It wasn't my intention to pull rank on you with my 40 year history or discount your own experiences. I'll go back to what I said in my first response - If you want authenticity you have to like people. Be interested in them. Curious about them. In most situations, it's pretty much entirely in your hands, at least for low-risk interactions. Interest and respect are irresistible. If your heart is pure, there is no good reason anyone would want to resist them.

It wasn't my intention to pull rank on you with my 40 year history or discount your own experiences. — T Clark

Oh no, you're fine. I didn't take it as you pulling rank on me. I meant what I said quite literally ... no sarcasm or innuendos. I respect experience, when it comes to any aspect of life. I'm a firm believer that real-life experience is a better teacher than any book or theory.

So, I was saying that I respect your experience, and that I don't doubt the truth of what you're saying about marriage and its challenges.

Interest and respect are irresistible. If your heart is pure, there is no good reason anyone would want to resist them. — T Clark

Oh, how I'd love to believe that, and I did for the longest time ... it just didn't prove true for me :)

There is no *good* reason ... but there are reasons :)

Oh, how I'd love to believe that, and I did for the longest time ... it just didn't prove true for me :) — Aurora

Maybe you think it's too good to be true, but I think that's seeing things backwards. It's not a call for us to look on the sunny side, tra la la, la la. It's a call for us to take responsibility for our own interactions and relationships.

It's not about my beliefs; I'm just telling you what I experienced (reality, not theory). I did put my open and sincere heart out there ... genuine interest, genuine respect, n all ... and in return, I got bent over and ... you get the picture.