I agree.Without establishing a starting point (read: defining "belief" and salvation"), how can you proceed? — tim wood
But it is also unimaginable that salvation can be achieved without external assistance -- the very word, "salvation", would become an exaggeration in such a scenario. "Saving oneself" without any external aid is more like "learning something" or "regular development" than like really "saving". — Mariner
Right, but this idea that salvation does, to some extent, depend on something external can be found in non-Abrahamic traditions too. For example, in Buddhism, one must encounter the Dhamma, at least in one of their past lives, for the possibility of salvation to exist in this life.The entire concept of salvation, of course, is predicated on a, let's say, Abrahamic anthropology that views man as at least mildly tainted (on a spectrum that goes all the way to fully damned). — Mariner
it is unimaginable that salvation can be forced upon someone against his will, or that God would force belief upon some subject (and this is relevant to the example of your interaction with your friend). But it is also unimaginable that salvation can be achieved without external assistance — Mariner
The entire concept of salvation, of course, is predicated on a, let's say, Abrahamic anthropology that views man as at least mildly tainted (on a spectrum that goes all the way to fully damned). If man is intrinsically good, then salvation makes no sense. In that sense, the translation of the concept "salvation" to a Hindu worldview is problematic. — Mariner
St. Thomas needed proof — John
Without establishing a starting point (read: defining "belief" and salvation"), how can you proceed? — tim wood
I agree. — Agustino
There also seem to be two notions of salvation at play. The salvation you're talking about with regards to your friend I suppose isn't a religious form of salvation, is it? I mean you're not a Christian anymore as far as I know, right? — Agustino
I answered 'No', because if a God exists, I have to believe he's not a complete dick, which is what he would be if he condemned someone to eternal damnation because they didn't believe in him, when they had absolutely no control over the inputs of their creation, nor the environment into which they were born. — CasKev
As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
I think the mystics get closest — Noble Dust
Salvation is a lot harder for me to parse at this point. I get the general Christian sense of it, from being raised with it. I think the popularly accepted, simplest concept is: all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but Jesus offers salvation through...yep, belief in him. — Noble Dust
So, conditional salvation doesn't make sense. So salvation must be unconditional. The condition of belief can't be a predicate for salvation. If you're drowning in a river, you don't need to believe, or trust, or be confident that I can save you in order for me to actually successfully save you. — Noble Dust
So an unconditional salvation would stem from that reality. — Noble Dust
Love is unconditional. A loving parent gives their child what is necessary for their flourishing, without conditions. If God is Love, and Salvation is a flourishing state, she will give it to every one of her children, without imposing conditions. — andrewk
Because most of us care about others. Morality has nothing to do with 'earning salvation' unless one belongs to a handful of particular religions.So what's the point of doing good on earth if we all are saved without even needing to try and live moral lives?
Religious truth is...a species of practical knowledge. Like swimming, we cannot learn it in the abstract; we have to plunge into the pool and acquire the knack by dedicated practice. Religious doctrines are a product of ritual and ethical observance, and make no sense unless they are accompanied by such spiritual exercises as yoga, prayer, liturgy and a consistently compassionate lifestyle. Skilled practice in these disciplines can lead to intimations of the transcendence we call God, Nirvana, Brahman or Dao. Without such dedicated practice, these concepts remain incoherent, incredible and even absurd.
what's the point of doing good on earth if we all are saved without even needing to try and live moral lives? — Buxtebuddha
In a Buddhist (and Hindu) sense, must one step aboard the karmic treadmill in order to achieve enlightenment, or can one munch upon a doughnut on the sidelines and still, somehow, be elevated to a state of having been saved? — Buxtebuddha
Even within human interaction, is belief in another's potential to be saved when they themselves do not believe in salvation, enough for them to be saved? — Buxtebuddha
In a way I think the Christian God may be similar, in that he believes in his salvation being able to believe in themselves, and as a result, him as well. — Buxtebuddha
Yet, it would seem that if one does not believe in the Christian God, you won't be saved. — Buxtebuddha
If man is intrinsically good, then salvation makes no sense. — Mariner
Who do you admire? — Buxtebuddha
Indeed, but this framework alone misses out on good works, which are discussed elsewhere in the Bible. — Buxtebuddha
Perhaps in this example God is attempting to save us from drowning, but we swipe his hand away. — Buxtebuddha
It seems God must let us deny him (belief in him) even though letting us drown also goes against his nature to love. — Buxtebuddha
What's this look like, exactly? You might have already described it, and forgive me if you have, but I'm still curious. — Buxtebuddha
Love is unconditional. — andrewk
Another thought: is believing in the possibility of salvation the same as believing in salvation? — Buxtebuddha
In light of this, am I believing enough in order to be saved, or must I go out on a limb and put all my eggs in one notion of salvation's basket? — Buxtebuddha
After all, believing in one kind of salvation over another doesn't ensure that you're saved! — Buxtebuddha
So what's the point of doing good on earth if we all are saved without even needing to try and live moral lives? — Buxtebuddha
Who do you admire? — Buxtebuddha
since being and goodness are convertible terms in traditional Christian thought. — Thorongil
So what's the point of doing good on earth if we all are saved without even needing to try and live moral lives? — Buxtebuddha
Tolle, or Meister?and a little Eckhart
What matters, of course, is what God thinks it means. — Thorongil
But a key difference between Buddhism and Christianity is the emphasis on belief in the latter. — Wayfarer
The Buddhist attitude is ‘ehipassiko’, meaning ‘come and see’. — Wayfarer
Karen Armstrong — Wayfarer
Well I think I have a spiritual disposition — andrewk
But I don't see why a non-spiritual person couldn't subscribe to the 'love is unconditional' notion. Isn't it part of the notion of agape that it involves an unconditional concern for the welfare of the other? — andrewk
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