Maybe it is just a figure of speech. Maybe neither side of the quarrel uses "design" in the conventional sense like in the work of an architect, engineer, etc. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.
My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about life, including everything about the human mind. Darwin enabled modern secular culture to heave a great collective sigh of relief, by apparently providing a way to eliminate purpose, meaning, and design as fundamental features of the world.
Saying that we were "designed" like a car or an alarm clock sounds strange. Yet, apparently it is a joy for some people to say that about themselves. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.
People who describe God do it in terms wherein its powers and intellect are unlimited, On that basis it is not possible to prove or disprove its existence. Investigations on reality can only be based on observation and possibilities that can be confirmed. So far these indications indicate that there is no necessity to posit the existence of a god.We have to settle for that. — Jan Sand
Life probably started as a random accumulation of chemical/physical substances waving up and down on the surface of the sea or a large puddle. — Jan Sand
My question to Wayfarer is an attempt to understand what he sees as an important distinction between a person who does not believe in god and hopes there is none, and a person who does not believe in god and is either indifferent or hopes there is one. My guess is (correct me if I'm wrong Wayfarer) he sees the former as having lost objectivity. — ProbablyTrue
Well, the quote is from Thomas Nagel - you may or may not be familiar with him, but he's a respected philosopher, a rare breed in today's world. His point is that he wouldn't like to think that there's a God. I don't really know why he feels that way, except that maybe it's like a feeling of having made a losing bet, as he's always been a professed atheist. So maybe it's like 'gee I hope I don't turn out to be wrong'. — Wayfarer
I think for many self-described atheists, the question of the existence of God is something that has been sealed shut. It's a box marked 'solved', with tape around it, and it sits safely on a shelf, with no further examination required. But if you suspect that it might not be, that it might actually be still a 'live case' then it causes a lot of further questions. It might not be a sealed box, but a Pandora's box, after all. — Wayfarer
Evolution is an automatic process with a purpose to survive and proliferate. — Jan Sand
Jackson Pollock paintings are not random,they just use different methods for applying pigment and if they were not pleasing, Pollock rejected them and tried again.That is not random. — Jan Sand
Saying that we were "designed" like a car or an alarm clock sounds strange. Yet, apparently it is a joy for some people to say that about themselves. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
I don't think you're seeing the point, but then it's a really big issue. — Wayfarer
Being designed, in a loose sense, means that you were created for some purpose, or at the very least you are not an accident. Most theology would tell you that purpose is to worship/serve god. — ProbablyTrue
It's a joy only because it offers an alternative to the depressing notion that we exist by accident. It's comfy to think our bodies were made "with us in mind", as if it's all a great gift. It's kind of sad how people will froth at the mouth when they marvel at the cherry-picked beauty of a biological system. :-| — darthbarracuda
It may not be the point that is trying to be made, but it seems to be a logical conclusion of such thinking, nonetheless. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
The idea that humans are like mechanisms of any kind is pushing the analogy too far — Wayfarer
So the whole analogy is that, just as a complex object like a watch must have a builder, so too must a complex world in which there are living things have one. — Wayfarer
He says that ‘a deity capable of engineering all the organized complexity in the world — Wayfarer
must already have been vastly complex in the first place ..." He calls this "postulating organized complexity without offering an explanation." — Wayfarer
However as numerous critics have pointed out, the classical understanding of deity is precisely not a complex being at all, but is utterly simple. — Wayfarer
Which is why I said, the underlying issue is really intentionality rather than design. — Wayfarer
Designed or accidental/random--I don't see what difference it makes. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Who says that things that exist--organized or not; complex or not--must be the result of a process? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Like I said..... — Wayfarer
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