I know you've been arguing type! That's the problem.

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And you have the nerve to suggest that I'm the one who has not been following. I am disagreeing that it's a matter of type rather than severity, and I'm rejecting your absolutism.

I understand this, but this really boils down to the interpretation of what you consider to be better behaviour. — TimeLine

I trust your judgment and I think you'll be a good moderator. You also like to get in the ring and knock some blocks off. I expect it to be fun to see you in this new role.

Falsely accusing someone of something is wrong 100% of the time. Falsely accusing someone of something also makes you a dickhead 100% of the time. Doesn't matter what you falsely accuse someone of, if you are attempting to deride someone's character, — Buxtebuddha

Why does it make a difference if the accusation is false or not? What value is there in accusing someone of anything on the forum? The rule is "attack the argument." I can't say I'm without sin in this regard, but I'm working on it. Moderators have a greater responsibility for temperance than the rest of us.

False accusations are always wrong because they are false, therefore every false accusation ought not be made because each accusation would be wrong. You raped me, you stole my cat, you did x, y, z - the severity doesn't matter when every claim is false. Falsity entails wrongness, and that's only coherent structure that I understand and with which people should employ in their interactions with others. Falsely accusing someone of something is always wrong. Don't do it. There ain't no severity to one's wrongness. You're either right or you're wrong.

Regardless, I don't expect you or anyone else in moderating power to agree with me, otherwise many of you would need to apologize and change your behavior in future. Moderators like Hanover won't be on board with that, though, because it's so, so easy to pettily reply with, "Oh sweetie, but I didn't insult you as badly as if I accused you of being a rapist. So hur dur, stop complaining mister mongoloid pseudo man!"

Hopefully TimeLine can live up to the person of character that she's propped herself up to be. Nothing from her has led me to believe she'll be a good moderator or is a person of much character. It's up to her to prove me wrong, though.

Why does it make a difference if the accusation is false or not? What value is there in accusing someone of anything on the forum? The rule is "attack the argument." I can't say I'm without sin in this regard, but I'm working on it. Moderators have a greater responsibility for temperance than the rest of us. — T Clark

I don't know what that value is for everyone. Maybe Hanover enjoys making fun of Agustino. Perhaps Sappy gets off to having circular semantic games for no real reason. Beats me, Clarky. All I do know is that if I'm serious with an accusation against someone then I do, or can, supply a wealth of evidence in support of my claim. Not everybody can do that, however, which is why it's so frustrating discussing topics like these with people who obstinately refuse to back up their claims.

Edit: Also, and I forget the thread, but several mods weren't even crediting someone for having made an argument merely because they disagreed with the poster's claims. That's a madness to me. That sort of snobbery and disingenuous behavior is really sad and I see it all over the place here.

Yes, we can absolutely start our own forum. A forum where moderators are elected, where the guidelines are voted upon, where new moderators are approved by the community. Sure, we can do that, and we'll see where the people flock to. Not a place where a moderator is chosen in the middle of the night, in a closed room of 7 people - that sounds like a community for the moderators, not for the posters. One gets a request, and who gets to agree on it? Oh, the moderators. Fantastic! As if you are going to moderate the moderators, not us the people. — Agustino

I think it would be a loss to this forum if you left. @Bitter Crank said something similar in a previous post. There is really no one else who brings your perspective to discussions.

False accusations are always wrong because they are false, therefore every false accusation ought not be made because each accusation would be wrong. — Buxtebuddha

I don't agree. I find that absurd to the point of being humorous. You effectively made a false accusation against me only moments ago by suggesting that I had not been reading what you've been saying, but I would nevertheless defend your entitlement to say that if that's what you genuinely believed based on our discussion. Claims of a more serious nature are a bit different.

I don't know what that value is for everyone. Maybe Hanover enjoys making fun of Agustino. Perhaps Sappy gets off to having circular semantic games for no real reason. Beats me, Clarky. All I do know is that if I'm serious with an accusation against someone then I do, or can, supply a wealth of evidence in support of my claim. Not everybody can do that, however, which is why it's so frustrating discussing topics like these with people who obstinately refuse to back up their claims. — Buxtebuddha

That's T Clarky to you. I'll reiterate - I don't think there's any value, on this forum at least, in attacking someone as opposed to their ideas or behavior. It doesn't matter what evidence there is. As I said before, I don't claim to have always lived up to that ideal.

I told you to read, again. I know that's difficult, though. Apologies.

I'll reiterate - I don't think there's any value, on this forum at least, in attacking someone as opposed to their ideas or behavior. — T Clark

Attacking one's behavior, rightly or falsely, tells you a lot about their person and their character. Can't really get away from that. Digging at Agustino's work ethic is also a dig at his character, which is of his person.

Attacking one's behavior, rightly or falsely, tells you a lot about their person and their character. Can't really get away from that. Digging at Agustino's work ethic is also a dig at his character, which is of his person. — Buxtebuddha

I agree.

I agree. — T Clark

Dear diary...

All I do know is that if I'm serious with an accusation against someone then I do, or can, supply a wealth of evidence in support of my claim. — Buxtebuddha

And there'd be nothing wrong about that, even if it turned out to be false. If you don't know that it's false in advance, you've taken care to assess the evidence, and you're convinced that you're right, then it makes no sense to say that that's wrong and that you should not have acted as you did.

I told you to read, again. I know that's difficult, though. Apologies. — Buxtebuddha

I read what you said, and I also read between the lines. As I said, it was effectively an accusation, and a false one at that. It comes as no surprise to find that, once again, you're guilty of the very crime that you condemn.

Speaking of which, do you remember what you said earlier on about belittling people?

If you don't know that it's false in advance, you've taken care to assess the evidence, and you're convinced that you're right, then it makes no sense to say that that's wrong and that you should not have acted as you did. — Sapientia

In Hanover's case: He didn't know, assessed no evidence because he had none and was provided none, probably wasn't convinced that he was right but didn't care either way, and so it makes no sense for him to have gone at Agustino.

I read what you said, and I also read between the lines. — Sapientia

Can you teach me how to do that? I want to misrepresent others too!

Can you teach me how to do that? I want to misrepresent others too! — Buxtebuddha

I will teach you how to do that if you teach me how to employ implausible deniability, as you do so effectively. What's the title of this discussion, again?

Fry the crepes already.

I enjoy watching people squabble as much as the next guy, but we should really try to keep a lid on it -- for the good of the forum. I would not make it one of the rules, the violation of which might get one banned, or even have the offending post deleted, but really in principle, I don't see why there should be accusations or insults here--unless you are capable of the truly artful insult.

The problem with accusations and insults is that the force the accuser or insulter intends to pack into an accusation or insult might feel much worse to the receiver. Or, as likely, it may be misinterpreted altogether, or may upset someone else who wasn't the intended target.

We really don't know much about each other, even those who open up about their personal lives, because we don't know how realistic or complete the disclosure is. Agustino says he leans very strongly left. That seems surprising to me, but I don't know what Agustino's life actually looks like. I only know what he writes here. What he writes doesn't feel like leftist thinking to me. But I don't have to make a federal case out of his self-description, because I won't have any evidence beyond what he has written. One can debate about what someone has written (it's there, in black and white) but one needn't accuse the author of anything worse than inconsistency, or maybe a lack of clarity.

A second principle would be that if you think somebody is accusing you of something (really, whether they are right or wrong) or is saying insulting things to you or about you, please remember that the real you is not under attack. Your representation here might be, but that's not where you live. For your own mental health, don't take things too seriously here. This is just a small forum; it's not the Federal Reserve, it's not the UN Security Council. There are no earth-shaking issues at stake here.

we should really try to keep a lid on it — Bitter Crank

Agreed. And thanks to all who have publicly and privately expressed their support for this decision. I know the majority here wish TimeLine well and it's much appreciated.

Now though, this thread is being closed as sufficient discussion has occurred for the moderator group to understand and note the perspective of the few complainants we have had. If any members wish to raise issues that relate to this topic but which have not yet been raised in this discussion, they may be communicated by PM to one of the moderators.