If you've read Eckhart, you'll be familiar then with most translations describing this attachment to God as being a kind of sinking into him. That is, we're sinking back into the primordial waters that is God's creative love. — Buxtebuddha
You appear to be suggesting that slavery is good if one is a slave to the right person or thing. Strange, as I remember you being on the "tear down any 'Confederate' statue" boat because they represented slavery, presumably.
Sorry, I hope that I wasn’t wrong, and that you’re not being ironic. In either case, apologies if any are called for. — Wayfarer
There’s a Franciscan monk, Father Richard Rohr, who is a popular speaker and author on these topics. The book I have of his on the subject is called ‘Falling Upwards’, and it’s very much about this kind of idea. — Wayfarer
Also on this point, there is a conflation between salvation on the Christian worldview which is given by grace and salvation on the Buddhist worldview which is actually what Christians know as theosis or deification (which is not given by grace).The difference is that in one case (Christian grace) it is a gift from an agent (God) to the subject; in the other case, it is a precondition that is not offered by an agent. In Buddhism (as far as I know) there is no mind guiding or attracting people towards 'salvation' -- it is a result of personal effort + necessary preconditions. Therefore, it is quite unlike Christian grace in that it does not require external conscious help by an agent. — Mariner
If you're arguing that Christians and Buddhists - the respective faithfuls - both understand and mean the same things when they hear about or talk about belief and salvation within their faiths, I can assure you that is not the case.I used Christianity and Buddhism as examples with the assumption that readers would understand what religious belief and salvation mean in those contexts. — Buxtebuddha
If you're arguing that Christians and Buddhists - the respective faithfuls - both understand and mean the same things when they hear about or talk about belief and salvation within their faiths, I can assure you that is not the case. — tim wood
If you mean that somewhere within the main texts of either of these faiths there is a clear and complete explanation of what belief and salvation are, that also is simply not the case. — tim wood
That alone make most discussions of particular beliefs or salvation an exercise in nonsense. The invitation to define is simply an invitation to ground the discussion somewhere. — tim wood
But of course what we think it means would be even more important, since if we get it wrong, we might go to hell...? — Noble Dust
Regardless, I feel that the most significant & incompatible difference between Christianity and Buddhism lies on the topic of reincarnation. — Agustino
Oh come on! Rotting in the ground and becoming skunk cabbage isn't reincarnation -- its recycling. — Bitter Crank
Reincarnation would seem to be precluded by the Christian belief in the resurrection of the specific body which once was a man, as stated in the creeds, "I believe in the resurrection of the body". Within Christian theology, we are born once, live, and die -- and will be raised from the dead at some future time. — Bitter Crank
I feel that the most significant & incompatible difference between Christianity and Buddhism lies on the topic of reincarnation. — Agustino
In Buddhism (as far as I know) there is no mind guiding or attracting people towards 'salvation' -- it is a result of personal effort + necessary preconditions. — Mariner
Does Christianity really contradict reincarnation though? — BlueBanana
... so I didn't ask about the details, and they weren't ever explained to me — Wayfarer
It doesn't seem to me that life ever-lasting was either. — Bitter Crank
There are tough questions about the possibility and the actuality of divine revelation. An examination of some ideas of the neglected philosopher Josiah Royce (1855-1916) from the Golden Age of American philosophy will help us clarify some of the issues and problems. One such problem is this: How can one know in a given case that ...divine revelation is genuine?
1. Concern for Salvation as Essential to Religion. It is very difficult to define religion, in the sense of setting forth necessary and sufficient conditions for the correct application of the term, but I agree with Royce's view that an essential characteristic of anything worth calling religion is a concern for the salvation of man. Religious objects are those that help show the way to salvation. The central postulate of religion is that "man needs to be saved." Saved from what? ". . . from some vast and universal burden, of imperfection, of unreasonableness, of evil, of misery, of fate, of unworthiness, or of sin." In an earlier post on Simone Weil I spoke of generic wretchedness [the equivalent of the Buddhist 'dukkha']. It is that which we need salvation from.
2. The Need for Salvation. "Man is an infinitely needy creature." But the need for salvation, for those who feel it, is paramount among human needs. The need for salvation depends on two simpler ideas:
a) There is a paramount end or aim of human life relative to which other aims are vain.
b) Man as he now is, or naturally is, is in danger of missing his highest aim, his highest good.
To hold that man needs salvation is to hold both of (a) and (b). I would put it like this. The religious person perceives our present life, or our natural life, as radically deficient, deficient from the root (radix) up, as fundamentally unsatisfactory; he feels it to be, not a mere condition, but a predicament; it strikes him as vain or empty if taken as an end in itself; he sees himself as homo viator, as a wayfarer or pilgrim treading a via dolorosa (path of sorrows) through a vale that cannot possibly be a final and fitting resting place; he senses or glimpses from time to time the possibility of a Higher Life; he feels himself in danger of missing out on this Higher Life of true happiness. If this doesn't strike a chord in you, then I suggest you do not have a religious disposition. Some people don't, and it cannot be helped. One cannot discuss religion with them, for it cannot be real to them. It is not, for them, what William James in "The Will to Believe" calls a "living option," let alone a "forced" or "momentous" one.
3. Religious Insight. Royce defines religious insight as ". . . insight into the need and into the way of salvation." No one can take religion seriously who has not felt the need for salvation. But we need religious insight to show that we really need it, and to show the way to it.
4. Royce's Question. He asks: What are the sources of religious insight? What are the sources of insight into the need and into the way of salvation? Many will point to divine revelation through a scripture or through a church as the principal source of religious insight. But at this juncture Royce discerns a paradox that he calls the religious paradox, or the paradox of revelation.
Too bad we can't know that. — Buxtebuddha
This means that you think belief is required for salvation, and that one must choose one sort of salvation over another, ya? — Buxtebuddha
If eternity, then no, all seriousness (assuming that means profound philosophical notions, the gravity of the human condition, etc?) would not be done away with; they would be subsumed and brought to fruition through the outbreak of the finite into the infinite, into eternity, regardless of the actions of individuals. Maybe? — Noble Dust
And what about silliness, by the way? — Noble Dust
When you have the answers and know the truth, the Bible makes complete sense. — Steve
Because much of scripture has been misunderstood you won’t make the right conclusions based on what you learn at Sunday School. — Steve
To answer your question, you have to know what to believe and what you are being saved from. — Steve
Belief that Christ is Devine and His sacrifice is enough to wash every sin away means you never have to feel guilty. — Steve
But why would salvation be predicated on belief? — Noble Dust
I'm familiar with all of that, but I'm asking why belief is the predicate of salvation. — Noble Dust
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.