For example, if someone acquires his possessions by immoral means, it is not wrong to take them from him using immoral means. If I knowingly bought a stolen stereo or bought a stereo with money that I knew was stolen, it would not be immoral for someone to steal that stereo from me. I think most of us can agree with that. — czahar
I cannot agree with that at all. Regardless of how YOU obtain a stereo, it does not in any way give permission to another person to steal anything from anyone, including YOU and your stereo. If I were looking to buy a stereo and you were selling one, the onus is on you as to any kind of 'Karmic' settlement for good or evil, not me, the unknowing obtainer of your stereo. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
So, if I were caught with this stereo and the police took it away from me, you wouldn't support that? Assume that the person I had taken it from has died and it can't be returned to its original owner. — czahar
The police would take it away from you, if you took it from someone else but how would they know if you stole it from someone if that person is dead? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
I would therefore dispute all of the libertarian premises leading to the conclusion that taxation is wrong. However, even if taxation could be considered theft, that would not necessarily force the conclusion that taxation is wrong, either morally or legally. — czahar
Assume that the person I had taken it from has died and it can't be returned to its original owner. — czahar
I think you are being unnecessarily formalistic in dealing with this question. — T Clark
You say - "But I didn't choose to live in your society." I say "Tough titties." There used to be a solution - head off to unexplored areas and live off your own efforts with no help from others. That's not possible anymore. If you live in our society and use our infrastructure - roads, distribution networks, telephones, legal protections (including property ownership), etc., pay your damn taxes and stop complaining. — T Clark
In this post, I will argue that taxation is not theft, as many libertarians and anarcho-capitalists argue. — czahar
Taxation is theft. If a street gang said, "Give us 30% of your income and we'll protect you from the other gangs," that's a crime. But when the government does the exact same thing, it's regarded as legitimate. — fishfry
If one steps back and takes a moral view, violence from a street gang and from the State is indistinguishable. One need only read about the many police abuses of citizens in the US and elsewhere to understand that point. — fishfry
I can't think of any gang that operates today with majority support. — czahar
Taxation is theft. If a street gang said, "Give us 30% of your income and we'll protect you from the other gangs," that's a crime. But when the government does the exact same thing, it's regarded as legitimate. — fishfry
But as I noted earlier, the Nazis were the legitimate government of Germany and had broad popular support for their deeply immoral activities. Legality does not necessarily impart legitimacy. — fishfry
If your only argument for the legitimacy of government violence is that they're the government, that's refuted by the many examples of the immoral acts of governments throughout history
You seem to contradict yourself here. You state the "Nazis were the legitimate government of Germany" (which I agree with if we define "legitimate" as "lawful") but then you seem to contradict your statement by saying that legality (I'm assuming you're talking about the legality of the Nazi party) doesn't impart legitimacy — czahar
That wasn't my argument. The consent of the majority of voters as my argument for the legitimacy (e.g., legality) of government violence. — czahar
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