It is fair, I am told. I don't get it.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

I am single. I live alone. I work two jobs to support myself.

I don't receive any public assistance. I borrowed $10,000 in student loans (after paying for my first two semesters out of my own pocket; money I saved working during high school). I suppose that is public assistance, but I have paid it all back--plus interest. I have never said, "I've got all of this debt and there are no good-paying jobs! The government should forgive my debt!". Again, I have paid it all back. I don't think that I have ever made more than $30,000 in a year. I've had one respectable office job. But it has mostly been like now: working two minimum wage jobs and paying all my bills myself.

The two times I received unemployment benefits I took the first job I could get--no matter how undesirable or low-paying it was (I'm still working one of them now after almost 7 years). Other people I have known made no secret of the fact that they were living off of the unemployment benefits until they found a job that was comparable to the job they had lost and met other minimum demands of theirs, or until the benefits ran out.

I get a standard deduction on federal and state income tax. Other than a student loan interest deduction, which amounts to around $10.00, nothing else. I see other people get massive refunds because they get big deductions for their children, and probably other things. "Raising children is expensive" is a popular reply. Nobody pointed a gun at them and forced them to have children. It was what they wanted. And you should see the lifestyles of a lot of those people. Maybe Netflix and other things like that are necessities rather than luxuries? I don't have those things, and I have not died.

Speaking of dying, I have never had a lover (I live alone, remember?). People of the same sex who are lovers (don't tell me that anybody can enter a marriage contract with anybody now, and that it has nothing to do with love; "I have the right to marry the one I love!" was the argument all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court; marriage equality does not mean that I can enter a marriage contract with, oh, my sister) can now do things like receive their deceased spouse's Social Security benefits. If I die my SS benefits go back into the system, even though there are people I care about who could use the money. And that is just one benefit of marriage not available to me under the law--there are plenty more.

I rent, but I am sure that the landlord's property taxes are passed on to me in my monthly rent. I don't have any children, let alone any children in public schools.

And you should see the size of the families in the retail store I work in as they spend their SNAP and WIC benefits. It is safe to say that "We can't afford to support our one child by ourselves, so we should not have any more children until we can" never entered any of their equations. I make too much to receive SNAP benefits--I know; trying to comply with the Affordable Care Act forced me to look into every option. WIC? Well, you know, no children.

It increasingly feels like I am subsidizing other people's choices and lifestyles.

I thought that working to support yourself is the responsible thing to do. I thought that paying back loans you willingly agreed to take is the responsible thing to do, not expecting the government (taxpayers) to bail you out. I recall reading before I signed the agreement language saying something like "You understand and agree that being loaned this money is not a guarantee that you will get a job". It feels like I am subsidizing other people's irresponsible behavior.

The problem is that I have been told that I am way off base. Everything that I have just described is perfectly just and fair, I have been told. I benefit when other people use their tax breaks to raise healthy, productive future citizens. I benefit when other people's children are educated. I benefit when couples who are lovers have incentives to commit to each other--it creates "stable societies". Etc. Etc.

Whew! That was a lot.

Okay, I know this isn't proving the existence of God, resolving the free will vs. determinism disagreement, etc., but I am overwhelmed. How is everything that I have described in the preceding paragraphs fair and just? Let me guess: social contract theory? How is it good economics? Let me guess: Keynesian consumption?

I have been hearing a lot about wealth distribution, inequality, poverty, social justice, the 1%, etc. the last twelve years or so (there's even a new thread here about those things; only a few days old). Not that anybody cares about my perspective, but the above paragraphs have been my perspective the whole time. If I owed a lot in student loans and felt entitled to a job with a six-figure salary, Bernie Sanders would have been perfect. Debts forgiven! But that has never been my perspective. If I felt entitled to a factory job with a union wage, Donald Trump would have been perfect. Build that wall, Donald! But that has never been my perspective. If I support any candidate it sure isn't because I believe there is anything in it for me.

Maybe fairness and justice are overrated and, although I don't know it, I really have it made. I don't know.

What I do know is that all I have wanted for the past 23 years is to be able to use my resources to give and do good. Volunteering in the U.S. Peace Corps is one--one--goal I have had that whole time. Is that asking too much? I have done nothing but struggle economically--my feet still hurt from the 4-hour walk home from work one night a week (the night public transit stopped running earlier) several months a few years ago--and watch other people live lives full of luxuries and expect the government to do everything it has to, including forgiving their debts, to maintain their lifestyle that a medeival king would envy.

Here is where the philosophy comes in: I am supposed to believe that it is all just, fair, part of "progress", etc. Prove that it is! I know you all can do it! Humiliate me! Brand me with a scarlet "S" for "shame"! No challenge is too big for you all! You have everybody but me on your side. I have faith in you!

Now look at what you all have done! 1am, December, and I am on the Philosophy Forum. Now I get to go drive my cold car home and try to get a little sleep before reporting to work at my other job.

Noble Dust

Here is where the philosophy comes in: I am supposed to believe that it is all just, fair, part of "progress", etc. Prove that it is! — WISDOMfromPO-MO

No, it's not fair, and it never has been, for anyone. Fairness has nothing to do with happiness, let alone spiritual or psychological well-being. Your sensitivity to injustice is a gift, and also a thorn in your side that adds additional suffering unto the load of base-line suffering that you're already experiencing.

What I do know is that all I have wanted for the past 23 years is to be able to use my resources to give and do good. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

You say you have wanted "to be able to use" your resources. What is stopping you from being able to use those resources, resources you appear to already possess?

BC

I am supposed to believe that it is all just, fair, part of "progress", etc. Prove that it is! — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Au contraire, mon bon ami. Life was not fair in the past, is not fair now, and in all probability, won't be fair in the future. I don't like that, but that's the way it is. Oh, I see below this text box that Noble Dust just scooped me. Unfair, Dust Nob. The nerve!

I have made the statement several times here in the last few weeks that wages, economic security, purchasing power, etc. of the working class has been declining since 1975. Still, on the surface it doesn't look like people are 50% poorer now than they were 40 years ago. That's because both spouses are working at least 1 job, and if they have them, older children also work part time, quite often. Credit card debt, not thrift, is covering the gaps. Does the credit card get paid off every month? No, of course not. Another method people who own a home are using to cover over gaps is home equity loans--they're borrowing against their one major asset, quite often reducing the value of the house to zero.

Your perspective just isn't part of the official narrative. Sorry, you're just not quite pathetic enough. Plus, you are a gay white male (just guessing) and everybody knows that GWMs are a privileged group again, especially now that we aren't dying of AIDS, left and right.

I've been in the workforce since 1971. I have been both professionally employed, and have worked at temporary jobs or short term, white collar jobs. The most I made per hour was about 14.5, and that for only a year. Otherwise, I've made ends meet through frugality. I've seem the value of wages decline slowly, but pretty much continuously. I didn't have children, I didn't support my partner (we both worked, until he had to go on disability). I've never made enough in 40 years to raise my 'standard of living' more than a notch or two.

Is this fair? No. People who have done much better than me (education, experience, etc. being equal) were not necessarily more intelligent, more creative, or harder working than I was, but they were much more focused on the methods by which one advances. They had much, much more social intelligence than me. (I'm kind of a moron in that department, plus my aspirations didn't start out very high.)

Life is not fair, but at least it isn't singling you out for special treatment. A lot of people are getting crapped on.

BC

I rent, but I am sure that the landlord's property taxes are passed on to me in my monthly rent. I don't have any children, let alone any children in public schools. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Yes, they absolutely are passing property taxes on. Does the state where you live offer property tax relief to renters?

How is it good economics? — WISDOMfromPO-MO

When the chattering classes are on camera talking about good economics, they aren't thinking of people like you or me. they are thinking of people more like themselves, people who have made it well enough to be in the chattering lasses. Professional people, people who have good jobs, nice solid incomes that allow for travel, meals at better restaurants, a nicer car, better clothing--you know, up market stuff. The lives of us riff raff are not interesting, unless we fit into the preferred class of Victims Du Jour (fill in your preferred VDJ here).

WISDOMfromPO-MO

No, it's not fair, and it never has been, for anyone. — Noble Dust

Yes, generally speaking, fairness and justice are not features or properties of the universe. I have never encountered any theology, science or other thinking to the contrary.

But I have lived my whole life in a society that says it values fairness and justice under the law.

The distribution of resources through me--being legally coerced into giving up resources; getting very little back while others receive a lot of those resources--is fair and just, I have been told.

That sound you hear is me scratching my head.

Fairness has nothing to do with happiness, let alone spiritual or psychological well-being. — Noble Dust

But truth, honesty, a coherent understanding, etc. do.

There is a conflict between the popular belief that I should be thankful for the just, fair way I have been treated and my personal understanding and beliefs.

If somebody could show me how my personal understanding and beliefs are wrong, or if people would just be honest with me and say, "It's not fair, and I don't care", there would not be a problem.

You say you have wanted "to be able to use" your resources. What is stopping you from being able to use those resources, resources you appear to already possess? — Noble Dust

Just to survive and hold on to the hope for opportunities to do good, I have to do bad. You know, like working in industries that I believe are destructive; driving a car and polluting the air; etc.

The bad that I have to do greatly exceeds any good that I get the chance to do..

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Plus, you are a gay white male (just guessing) — Bitter Crank

No.

I am in every privileged biological category. Heterosexual. Male. White. Cisgender.

That is unless left-handers and/or introverts count as underprivileged groups. But I only write left-handed. The basketball scouting report on me is guard me closely on my right--I can barely make a pass, let alone get a shot off, with my left hand. Then again, I'll likely be so far away in my own internal world imagining in great detail what I will have for dinner that you will pause for a moment in confusion and give me a step as I drive to the basket.

and everybody knows that GWMs are a privileged group again, especially now that we aren't dying of AIDS, left and right. — Bitter Crank

"Check your privilege" does seem to be fickle.

but they were much more focused on the methods by which one advances. — Bitter Crank

Much of such advancement has always seemed to me to be gained at the expense of integrity.

I have never been eager to play the game.

I am sure that if I wanted to play the game I could succeed at it.

If people have to pretend, lie, etc. about the game being honest, what does that say about "success"?

Of course, maybe it is all honest and all of us have exactly what we deserve. I invited everybody here to show us that that is the case.

A lot of people are getting crapped on. — Bitter Crank

And they are hearing--even from some of the most popular thinkers--that it is all perfectly rational; that it is good economics; etc.

BC

I am in every privileged biological category. Heterosexual. Male. White. Cisgender. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

I can claim male, plus certified WASP status. It's a moderately satisfactory comfort.

I am sure that if I wanted to play the game I could succeed at it. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

A man can do what he wants, but not want what he wants. Schopenhauer.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Yes, they absolutely are passing property taxes on. Does the state where you live offer property tax relief to renters? — Bitter Crank

I have never heard of such a thing.

When the chattering classes are on camera talking about good economics, they aren't thinking of people like you or me. they are thinking of people more like themselves, people who have made it well enough to be in the chattering lasses. Professional people, people who have good jobs, nice solid incomes that allow for travel, meals at better restaurants, a nicer car, better clothing--you know, up market stuff... — Bitter Crank

But when the masses rebuke such elitism (Brexit; the 2016 Republican Primary and 2016 U.S. Presidential Election), they are dismissed as homophobic, xenophobic, racist, nativist misogynists. Their economic concerns barely make it onto any radar.

The lives of us riff raff are not interesting, unless we fit into the preferred class of Victims Du Jour (fill in your preferred VDJ here). — Bitter Crank

If the elites and the powerful were honest and said, "It does not serve our interests to try to meet your needs" that would be 100 times better than "Everybody benefits when we take resources from some people and give them to others". Why? Because it would be honest.

In other words, I would say that it is not that any person's experience is "not interesting". I would say that if you are crapping on people you are going to do everything you can to portray them negatively and avoid bringing attention to the truth about them--and about you.

BC

I have never heard of such a thing. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

The state of MN collects income and sales taxes and some other taxes and fees. MN cities and counties collect property and/or sales taxes to pay for municipal projects and services such as schools, road repair, fire and police, etc. Property taxes in many cities, like Minneapolis, are quite high because the level of services is generally pretty good. Because the resources of the state are much greater than the resources of the cities and counties, a deal was worked out whereby the state will refund up to a 45% of one's property taxes whether one pays the tax directly or one's landlord pays the tax. You do have to file to get the refund, and how much you get depends on how much income you have and how much rent (or tax) you pay. Being poorer means a larger refund.

The state allocates property tax relief as a budget line item. The legislature decided quite a few years ago that helping to stabilize housing for individuals and families was an important social good, so the rebate is tilted to people who are more likely to have difficulty paying for housing. The elderly, poorer people, and people living in cities with high property tax (like Minneapolis and Saint Paul) are the main beneficiaries. Wealthy people, people living in rural areas, and low-tax cities and counties all get much, much smaller rebates, if any at all.

Minnesota is a high-tax state and has a good economy, most of the time. This enables the state to carry out programs like this. Low tax states, regardless of the economy, can't.

BC

they are dismissed as homophobic, xenophobic, racist, nativist misogynists. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

That is an interesting list. GLBT, immigrants, non-whites, and women are the groups presumed to be oppressed by the masses of straight, native, white, males. An essay in this on-line magazine Quillette notes that this is straight out of feminist theory, and asks why anybody pays attention to stuff like that. The article is entitled "Why No One Cares About Feminist Theory". Quite good. I also like AREO MAGAZINE. Note, it's "areo" not "aero".

BC

that would be 100 times better than — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Honesty is always better, of course, but you'll be just as crapped on, they'll just be frank about it.

dog

Everything that I have just described is perfectly just and fair, I have been told. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Hi. Do people really tell you this? For me it's usually people talking about how screwed up the world is.
And I also thought 'life isn't fair' was a platitude.

Here is where the philosophy comes in: I am supposed to believe that it is all just, fair, part of "progress", etc. Prove that it is! — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Dr. Pangloss comes to mind. The person who says it's all good and right and as it should be strikes me as a fascinating exception. Didn't some stoic once say that the world is perfect? I don't believe that, but it's a fascinating strategy. Perhaps the usual mode is finding reasons to live and therefore to say that life is good (and roundaboutly fair). Then the less usual but common enough mode is finding reasons to die. 'Life isn't fair' seems like a tweener, both an attempt to adapt (adjust expectations) and a damning compromise perhaps. Fairness seems like an intra-human concept. The freezing cold outside doesn't seem to care much what we've been through and would still like to accomplish.

I'm sure you do have it made relative to some people's current and fragile desires and expectations. And others would consider your life a piece of hell. A lot of old men would pay you for your youth, I'd bet. Is any resource more taken for granted? Maybe health. Anyway, I relate to your disgust with the game. So much that is public is false. And yet we need what the system offers. If we die in our righteousness, then verily we have our reward. (?)

Roke

The notion of fairness is an eternal wellspring of cognitive dissonance. Starting with the genetic lottery at birth, nothing about life is actually fair outside of a very narrow and arbitrary level of analysis.

We find ourselves in the current equilibrium of competing interests and abilities that vary across 7+ billion participants and it's a bottom-up configuration. It's not 'supposed' to be any which way and it doesn't happen to be fair.

bioazer

But when the masses rebuke such elitism (Brexit; the 2016 Republican Primary and 2016 U.S. Presidential Election), they are dismissed as homophobic, xenophobic, racist, nativist misogynists. Their economic concerns barely make it onto any radar. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

The idea that Trump's movement was in any way populist is a complete sham. In fact, the majority of Trump's voter base was affluent white people. Brexit seems to draw a lot of parallels. And although I do think that the liberal response to and hatred of Trump supporters tends to be excessive, what else are they supposed to think about people who voted for a man who is so obviously "homophobic, xenophobic, racist, nativist [and] misogynistic?"
You clearly have been sidelined, and your quality of life is much lower than it could be. There are many people like you in America; some of them are white males; but the majority, despite affirmative action, are black or Latinx, or Native American, and especially women. There are definitely individuals who abuse the system... but often this opportunistic view comes from a history of being abused by it. When you have been trodden upon all your life, you don't expect the system to be fair. You take what you can get.
The efforts that have been made by the government to fix inequality and improve the lives of the working class are far from perfect. How could they be, in a nation where legislators are afflicted with rabid bipartisanship and paid by corporations and lobbyists to advance their interests? And even if the legislation had been the best is could possibly be, the fairest and cleanest and most humane, there would undoubtedly still be poverty, and low quality of life and people who work their a**es off for nothing-- because all of these efforts are really just a Band-Aid on the festering wound that is free-market capitalism.
Read A Colony in a Nation by Chris Hayes and Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehitsi Coates and maybe The Communist Manifesto. (This last I would discourage you from taking to seriously, however; its ideology is pretty crude.)

Hanover

Volunteering in the U.S. Peace Corps is one--one--goal I have had that whole time. Is that asking too much? I — WISDOMfromPO-MO

What is the status of your application?

charleton

↪WISDOMfromPO-MO

All the time you have been working and studying there are thousands of your fellow country men and women that have increased their wealth without doing any work at all. They have done this by the magic of being able to 'make money' simply by having money. In addition they have also had the benefits of a wide range of tax breaks for the rich which they have used to store lots of cash in offshore accounts to avoid any tax whatever.

If that were not enough many of them are in control of your media and have been encouraging you and people like you to blame their situation on a range of people; blacks; hispanics; unmarried mothers; benefits claimants and illegal aliens.

But that is all fair in the American nightmare.

It is fair, I am told. I don't get it.

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Categories

More Discussions