Just thought that I would publicly declare, even though I said that I wouldn't because I'm kind of super pissed that I'm leaving the site now for good. Getting censored, and then cowering from demands to justify it, while attempting to negotiate fragile fucking sensitivities.

Frankly we all know that the management are all just buddies, without even any significant knowledge of philosophy, the subject of the site. Cause they're buds, and not at all qualified to judge a fucking thing on the subject. Everyone knows that.

I let plenty go in the past that I disagreed with, but I won't be told what I'm on about now isn't philosophy by know nothings.

So yeah, I'm all butt hurt and I'm leaving. Laterz.

Fair enough. Anyway, I'll post here for you the poem of yours that @Michael judged to be off-topic and deleted, and that initiated your protest.

"I run away and hide the shame
I render you weak and lame
Numb your hands, numb your face
Insensitive to my disgrace

Poison you with every breath
worship falsity, worship death
Paranoia, distrust
Fear lust, and disgust.

Perhaps uncreated, but it can still be destroyed."

If anyone wants to discuss the merits of the decision further, please start a discussion in the Feedback forum. Cheers.

Wayfarer posted a quote by someone a little while afterwards which included "
Schumacher advocates the traditionalist view that there are four kingdoms: Mineral, Plant, Animal, Human. He argues that there are critical differences of kind between each level. Between mineral and plant is the phenomenon of life. Schumacher says that although scientists say we should not use the phrase 'life energy', the difference still exists. Schumacher points out that though we can recognize life and destroy it, we can't create it."

I was told that the whole topic was questionable as philosophy because it was about the soul, and that's fucking ridiculous, you guys have the views of every average high schooler in western culture, if this were 1930s Germany, you'd all be fucking Nazis. You're just echoes for populism and fads, with no substantial knowledge of the history of philosophy.

The last stanza is the three poisons in Buddhism, much of it is highly controversial stuff, hardly easily demonstrable without much experience of what I'm talking about, but I at the very least frequently reference similar views, to show that I'm at least not alone.

It was deleted because it was a poem, and the whole thing could have been deleted because it was about the soul. Aristotle would have been banned, or it is more likely that it he was just dumber, and more ignorant than you, and would be toting populism too if he were around now.

Your only concern was also just being attacked and made to look the bad guy, making you the villain, fucking victimizing you. Michael took two days to say one sentence and then fucked off again.

No fucking accountability, no responsibility, just status.

I was told that the whole topic was questionable as philosophy because it was about the soul, and that's fucking ridiculous, you guys have the views of every average high schooler in western culture, if this were 1930s Germany, you'd all be fucking Nazis. You're just echoes for populism and fads, with no substantial knowledge of the history of philosophy. — Wosret

Yes, unfortunately, this is unavoidable when literarily all mods are atheists or lean towards atheism. It's a problem that I've signalled for a long time, but, since there is much unwillingness in changing the team up from time to time, it's difficult to fix. I never understood why we can't have moderator elections and moderators who switch from time to time.

Regarding the deletion of the poem, I think the other issue here is that philosophy itself has tended to favour heavily rationalistic, scientistic and step-by-step means of presenting ideas. So it's almost impossible to imagine Kant writing philosophy in the form of a poem, or a narrative. So historically poetry and narrative have been left to religion, and philosophy has sought to distance itself from it. Of course, I think because of this distancing philosophy has become somewhat blind.

So yeah, I'm all butt hurt and I'm leaving. Laterz. — Wosret

That would be sad, since you are one of the people who are creative enough to have interesting views and opinions that can shake things up here a little bit. There is a lot of monotony many times otherwise.

Keep in mind that it takes time to change things, even in the moderation, so if people like you leave, this site will just become a worse place.

Continental philosophy (not a super fan of the distinction between continental and analytical), like Emerson is fucking beautifully poetic.

Theology is part of philosophy, if it's all becoming just post modern circle jerks by resentful self-involved egomanics then philosophy really is dead, and nothing but empty circle-jerks of verbiage.

Continental philosophy (not a super fan of the distinction between continental and analytical), like Emerson is fucking beautifully poetic. — Wosret

Sure, some bits of it are. But even things like Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals, etc. etc. they are still in discourse form - they aren't narratives or poems (though things like Thus Spake Zarathustra most certainly are different).

And then there's the issue that this site is heavily Anglo anyway - even old PF was pretty much. Not that there aren't people who want or can discuss other things, but just a general observation. People just expect air-tight step-by-step arguments here, and are unwilling to admit of creative leaps or feeling based philosophy that cannot be scientifically verified.

Precisely because of populism, and fads. Everything is positivism, and post-modernism. Someone can just write massive word salads that no one understands, but if the words are big enough, and it doesn't rhyme they must be a genius. They can just quote idiots, and have zero follow through that isn't rhetorical asides at not being of their level, and all the accolades are theirs.

Fucking cowards, Cagliostros.

Precisely because of populism, and fads. Everything is positivism, and post-modernism. Someone can just massive word salads that no one understands, but if the words are big enough, and it doesn't rhyme they must be a genius. They can just quote idiots, and have zero follow through that isn't rhetorical asides at not being of their level, and all they accolades are theirs. — Wosret

Yeah, but then pretty much all society functions that way unfortunately... The interesting thing is how such things can be countered or kept in check at least.

I would add that many people here have built exquisite conceptual labyrinths, which may be lacking of any and all meaning, but it takes an enormous amount of effort to go through them in a rationalistic fashion, so no one does it. The large intellectual scaffolding is also a psychological defense mechanism - since it lets you think you have a grip on things. I know some people here who for years have basically been repeating the same thing over and over ad nauseam...

Omg, yeah I know, learn something new, holy fuck. Must have gotten a pat on the head for it once, and chasing that feeling again or something...

I'm worried that that is just what happens to you when fluid intelligence disappears when you get too old and decrepit.

Aristotle would have been banned, — Wosret

Never in a million years do I want to read the words I just read from you Wosret, never, ever. But I cannot unread it so I will offer up my genuine, absolute desire for you to remain here within our family of 'thinkers'.

What I can gather is that you are much like me in that you let the little things go and never even bring them up, firstly because it may not be worth it or secondly you know it would have a direct effect on one or two people on the moderation team. For example: When the word 'cunt' was considered lame but okay to use on the threads, I just watched to see what would happen, instead of flagging it. The word was not immediately censored but I have noticed that a few time since it has been censored. Is it a word that others toss around casually? Maybe in other countries but not mine and that is the rub. We all have to collectively come to an agreement as to what standards we want to meet and for others to see when they approach our forum. You know as well as I do that our family of 'thinkers' is a group of misfits sure but we are loving and we don't always know how something we say or do will affect another.

Leaving this site doesn't just flip the bird to the management but it hurts some of us others on a deeper level, like me. The last time I talked about souls was on the old forum and the poll I attached to it was the HIGHEST attended poll in PF and that was if they existed or not. The only real believer was Mars Man and we had some really in depth conversations about it. Now? He is the only one who really knows and I don't have the luxury of asking him about it one more time. You? I hope to have around to ask questions of until you know if souls exist as well.

One thought before I close and that is something that our dear friend 'sheps' always noted me for saying and that is to accept and satisfy Aristotle's Challenge on Anger; Aristotle said that to become angry is easy~ But to be angry at the right person, at the right time, to the right degree for the right reason, that is not so easy.

So I ask for your forgiveness for any words that might have hurt your heart and soul~ (L)
Tiffers

I have no other options than to roll over, and expect to be silenced on ideological grounds, and out of personal aversion to the views, and forms of expression, or leave, as it is readily apparent that they're all just going to hide until the storm blows over.

Feedback — Hanover

Good luck, Wos (Y)

You're saying I've been hiding? — Wosret

I was told that the whole topic was questionable as philosophy because it was about the soul, and that's fucking ridiculous, you guys have the views of every average high schooler in western culture, if this were 1930s Germany, you'd all be fucking Nazis. You're just echoes for populism and fads, with no substantial knowledge of the history of philosophy. — Wosret

I get you're mad, but I'm pretty sure had I been around in 1930s Germany my fate would have been different than you're suggesting. But, why be literal, which is what this whole debate is over? My understanding from our very lengthy discussions, where I was certainly not hiding from you or hiding behind my lofty status, was that you felt that your writing style was being rejected because it was outside the analytical norm, specifically that it injected personalized experience into the posts without which would make your posts hollow and lacking true meaning. You also questioned the literal/metaphorical distinction, claiming, I believe, all were varying forms of symbolism.

I admit that I might be wrongly or poorly summarizing your position, and, when we talked, I suggested many times that you make this debate not something between a few mods, but that you discuss it publically, considering it's an issue of philosophical value, and who knows, it might be correct. It's also quite possible that your posts are in fact ramblings devoid of value. I do believe, that whatever your posts are, their deletion was based upon an honest evaluation of incoherence and being off-point. I do believe that's a reasonable evaluation a reasonable person could hold, and perhaps a reasonable person could hold otherwise. There has been no malice towards you. I am and we all are truly disappointed that you're saying you want to leave.

I hope you'll stay Wosret.

So yeah, I'm all butt hurt and I'm leaving. Laterz. — Wosret

Wait a few hours, see how you feel. Then wait another day or two, see you feel. I would much prefer that you stay on with the rest of us. On the other hand, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. I've walked out of some organization on a couple of occasions. It felt good. It didn't make any difference to THEM, just me.

"I run away and hide the shame
I render you weak and lame
Numb your hands, numb your face
Insensitive to my disgrace

Poison you with every breath
worship falsity, worship death
Paranoia, distrust
Fear lust, and disgust.

Perhaps uncreated, but it can still be destroyed. — Baden

Philosophy can be packaged in poetic form. It's an accessible statement. I don't see a problem.

As I said above, @Michael's stated reason for the deletion was that the post was off-topic not because it was poetry. Besides, I'm the last person you need to talk to about the general merits of poetry, I've written a book of poetry and have a website dedicated to it. I don't write poetry in response to philosophical topics here though for several reasons, not least of which is because it's hard to communicate clearly that way to most people. Wosret can try to do that if he wants, and if it works, fine. If it doesn't, he may get moderated like anyone else. This time he got moderated. In any case, I like the colour he adds to the site and hope he decides to stay but the fact remains that poetry is difficult to do well and difficult to make relevant in a philosophical context, and is subject to moderation like everything else.

Should be a poetry mod then, if you actually know something about that, not a philosophy one.

It's just an Internet forum, not the proceedings of the Royal Society.

Then again when Newton was the president of the Royal Society, he ordered the destruction of the last known portrait of his great rival Robert Hooke. If these geniuses of the past were online today they'd be snarling and snarking at each other all day long.

Newton said that he deliberately wrote his Principia in an obscure manner so as "to avoid being baited by little Smatterers in Mathematicks." Old Isaac could flame with the best of 'em.

Muppet, see I have seen the real you a couple of times, and not the stage persona you'd prefer to show publically, and teased it before to your nervous jitters. I know the difference between people's thoughts and personas. I've seen the difference between yours first hand. I know what you're thinking and feeling inside, which renders this show, and justifications fucking lies.

Sure, I'm obnoxious, but I'm me. I'm not a fraud. Philosophy is fundamentally about living the good life, not taking all of the steps to ensure self-hatred, repression, covert aggression, numbness and blindness.

He also stole his ideas, but said that it didn't count because he didn't render them mathematically, and making a big fucking show of it was all about rationalizing his theft to himself. That kind of bullshit results in that kind of destructive, underhanded aggression. Rather than just confronting people with words, and not sabotage.

We shouldn't be pretending to be saints, we should just be able to handle everyone's terrible opinions.

I don't get the extravagant idea that something was being 'censored'. It was just a moderation attempt that wasn't really necessary.

Because he just didn't like it, it was based in his personal aversion, that's why.

Anyway, can't keep coming back here to bitch, gotta actually move on, I know that it isn't going to change anything, they'll just ignore it, until it goes away, and me, unlike all the rest of their problems, actually will.

Gotta stop, gotta be strong, find some other place... but with the increasing prevalence of echo chambers, and sand mounds to stick your head in, ain't many places to go, and I've hung around for a decade, so it's going to be difficult to sever this part of my life, I like reading and interacting here, and like the people, unfortunately it ain't mutual.

...I have seen the real you a couple of times, and not the stage persona...

I know what you're thinking and feeling inside, which renders this show, and justifications fucking lies.

Sure, I'm obnoxious, but I'm me. I'm not a fraud. — Wosret

Well, apparently admins have to show high standards, so I shouldn't honestly tell you what I think of your childish meltdown or the idea that we should all appreciate your adolescent-level poetry as anything other than an attempt at humour. My bad for not being as obnoxious as you.

Anyway, can't keep coming back here to bitch, gotta actually move on... — Wosret

Yes, it was getting boring, so I'm closing the discussion. Pity you couldn't have left with a bit of dignity and / or grace, but good luck anyway.