Of course there are habits that one isn't always conscious of. But you are claiming you drive while unconscious - and live to tell about it. This is an entirely different matter. — Rich
But apparently you also believe you can drive unconsciously, and that consciously you are only aware of a single thing. — apokrisis
So how does it all fit together for you if you reject a more scientific view? — apokrisis
Deriving seems that is is done automatically. — bahman
Part of driving is learned habit (body/muscle memory). Part of it better be quite conscious as I described. You are perceiving an image and consciously making decisions based upon what you perceive. You might see dozens of cars in front of you and make a decision to leave the road, or otherwise. — Rich
I don't see what is the problem. — bahman
Everybody can only focally be conscious of one thing at a time. — bahman
You’ve mixed up that story with the other one which tests perceptual grouping. At a glance, we can see that there are one, two, three or then “many” of some object in a collection. If the objects are arranged - as a square, as a hexagon - we can then see the wholeness of the pattern and the number we associate with it. With a random arrangement, we would have to go back to some form of serial inspection. — apokrisis
That’s more a measure of how many items we can hold at once in working memory. — apokrisis
To be in one's working memory, means that the person is consciously aware of that thing. — Metaphysician Undercover
So if the person is able to hold six items in one's working memory, this means that the person is consciously aware of all six of those items at the same time. — Metaphysician Undercover
1) We need at least two choices for a decision
2) We can be conscious of one choice at any given time
3) Therefore conscious decision is impossible — bahman
I get the impression you believe nature is Newtonian deterministic and therefore free will becomes a problem. But that is a limited view of causality even within physics these days, let alone neuroscience. — apokrisis
I am talking of a view of brain function where it accumulates many degrees of freedom - all the many things it might concretely do (and so also, not do). And then attention acts top down to constrain or bound these freedoms in useful, goal achieving, fashion.
So free will is just rational choice, voluntary action. There is a vast variety of things we could be thinking or doing at any instant. We accumulate a vast store of habits and ideas - concrete skills and notions. Then we must constrain this huge variety of possibilities during every conscious moment so that we limit ourselves to thoughts and actions best adapted to the needs and opportunities of the moment.
To speak of free will is really just to note that we have a socially constructed sense of self that lies over our voluntary behaviour - another level of filter to bound the possible variety of our behaviour. We can consciously weigh what might best suit us personally against what might best suit some wider communal identity we participate in.
So a constraints-based causality avoids the philosophical problems that a physical determinism would seem to create. — apokrisis
I think that the average person is aware of about six objects at once, without having to count them. So this premise is incorrect, we are focally conscious of numerous different things at the very same time. — Metaphysician Undercover
Say you have a choice between two courses of action.
Consider each of the two options separately, one at a time, writing down its merits and demerits.
Now, repeatedly look from one option's merit list to the other option's merit list. Remembering how you felt about the first option's merits, do you feel as strongly about the 2nd option's merits?
Do the same with the demerits.
Follow your impression, your intuitive feeling.
Michael Ossipoff — Michael Ossipoff
Perhaps you could. I can be only be focally conscious of one thing at any time. I of course could keep a few thing in my working memory. — bahman
The whole concept of "being consciously aware" is problematic as it imports an unwanted degree of binary definiteness into what is going on. — apokrisis
You are driving while unconscious? Ok. — Rich
It seems to me, like I am always consciously aware of many things at the same time. I hear many different things going on around the room, I look around and see many different things. Perhaps you are different from me in that respect, but don't you hear many different things going on at once? — Metaphysician Undercover
you're suggesting that the sub-conscious makes the decision before you're conscious of it? — David Solman
you're suggesting that the sub-conscious makes the decision before you're conscious of it? — David Solman
Yes. — bahman
There has been a long controversy as to whether subjectively ‘free’ decisions are determined by brain activity ahead of time. We found that the outcome of a decision can be encoded in brain activity of prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 10 s before it enters awareness. This delay presumably reflects the operation of a network of high-level control areas that begin to prepare an upcoming decision long before it enters awareness.
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