If god is construed as omniscient, then god knows everything, from the beginning to the end of time, the whole shebang, but if this is so then his knowledge of our decision/actions is similar to our reflections on past events, which neither he nor we can change, in this way we are free to do what we will, because god can't change them, god is past them. — Cavacava
I remember discussing this paradox in one of college philosophy classes. I can't recall which authors we read, but I remember we watched a portion of Minority Report, because it deals with the same idea--seeing the future, and the implications of that. I wish I remembered more details to share, but unfortunately I don't. Considering it now, though, it's difficult to even comprehend. Essentially, the ability to see/predict the future would require determinism, and yet if you show a person their future you are now adding a variable that wasn't present before (them having knowledge of the future) which means you are changing their future, which shouldn't be possible if you were able to see it in the first place. — JustSomeGuy
There's a more straight forward incompatibility to be found, as far as I can tell.
Suppose one entity, or single mind, that's both omniscient and free (to change it's mind).
Mind and freedom to change it's mind already implies temporal. †
Freedom (to change mind) is independent of whatever, including whatever knowledge.
In principle it's solely dependent on (the existence of) said mind, if it's to be free at least.
So, freely changing mind along the way cannot be known prior, since otherwise it wouldn't be free (to do so).
Conversely, in case said entity already knows everything at an earlier time, then that means the knowledge is true.
Which, in turn, cannot be false later on, and hence means the entity cannot change mind by then, since otherwise it would be false.
Not because omniscience itself is causative, but just because the knowledge is true.
(As an aside, this line of reasoning doesn't involve modal logic per se.)
Note, this stuff pertains to just one mind that's assumed both all-knowing and free, it's not about any other entities/minds.
Thus, God cannot be a mind that's both omniscient (with foreknowledge) and free.
† Some responses to the incompatibility will have the entity (or God as a special case) be "atemporal".
I think this may be even more problematic, though. — jorndoe
"The Son of Man goes, even as it is written of him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born." Judas, who betrayed him, answered: "It isn't me, is it, Rabbi?" He said to him: "You said it."
“this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”
You mean like he told Judas or Peter.
"The Son of Man goes, even as it is written of him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born." Judas, who betrayed him, answered: "It isn't me, is it, Rabbi?" He said to him: "You said it."
“this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”
He played his own story?
Still like my argument. — Cavacava
Conversely, in case said entity already knows everything at an earlier time, then that means the knowledge is true.
Which, in turn, cannot be false later on, and hence means the entity cannot change mind by then, since otherwise it would be false.
No, His knowledge of our decision is not similar to our reflection of past events. He can tell us what we will do in future. — bahman
God cannot tell us what we will do in the future, because what we will do is in principle unknowable (according to science), and if you check your theology, you will find that God only knows what can be known. — tom
What is the issue related to atemporal God? — bahman
You are subjecting God to the constructs of time, which is a mistake. The reality is that everything that ever has existed or happened, and everything that ever will exist or happen, can just be seen as being. A sort of singularity of things going on. We cannot help but view things through the lens of time because that's how our brains process information, but time is not something "out in the world", it only exists inside our minds. — JustSomeGuy
Think of the universe as a hunk of clay, with it's own bumps and shapes and characteristics, all just existing at once as it is. God can look at the clay as a whole and see all of it, because he is not part of the clay. — JustSomeGuy
It's absolutely nothing to do with time. — tom
And He cannot tell which decision you will make, in principle. — tom
You are subjecting God to the constructs of time, which is a mistake. The reality is that everything that ever has existed or happened, and everything that ever will exist or happen, can just be seen as being. A sort of singularity of things going on. We cannot help but view things through the lens of time because that's how our brains process information, but time is not something "out in the world", it only exists inside our minds. — JustSomeGuy
You're still subjecting God to time, which doesn't make sense. God sees all of your decisions at once, your entire life as a point, a singularity. This is what the universe looks like outside of time. — JustSomeGuy
Suppose x is defined as atemporal, “outside of time”. Well, then there can be no time at which x exists. And there can be no duration involved, x cannot change, or be subject to causation, cannot interact, and would be rather inert. — jorndoe
The existence of a god that knows everything that is going to happen means that there is no free will.
if he knows your future from the day you are born then nothing can be changed, you have no decisions to take. — Sir2u
We always do what God knows and there is no conflict between God's knowledge and free will unless we are informed and wish to do opposite. — bahman
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