I tend to be more sympathetic to a theistic point of view than an atheistic one, not because I am a believer but because they believe in something, right or wrong. They don't define themselves based on the fact that something doesn't exist. What an odd sort of self-identification. — T Clark
But can't the atheist view be easily rephrased as a positive belief? It's a vision of nature in which nature is unconcerned with humanity.
Atheists vary, and some may call themselves agnostics as a matter of taste. But perhaps the essence is that non-human reality is indifferent to humans and also that death is the end. These are 'positive' beliefs that are acted upon. To deny God and afterlife is to affirm nature's indifference and genuine personal mortality --and the reverse. So theism can be framed as a denial of death and cosmic indifference. — dog
But that's not the way atheists, or more correctly anti-theists, do it. It seems like the fact that there is no God is more important to them than what there is. It really seems like the hatred of religion came first and the philosophical/scientific superstructure came later. — T Clark
The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural, and religious background. — Harry Hindu
You said it. Not me. — TheMadFool
It is interesting that the list of symptoms does not specify that the belief is false.
Suppose someone is being followed by the secret police in a country where such things happen and where nobody dares talk about them for fear of persecution. He would probably have all the symptoms listed. But he would not have a delusion. — Cuthbert
It is you that is being too dismissive because you don't understand my background and my experiences.It takes a bit of hubris to think you can explain the motivations of billions of people with whom you disagree in a single dismissive sentence. To think that you're right and most everyone else is completely wrong sounds like a delusion to me. I'm not a theist but it's clear to me you are wrong in your assessment. — T Clark
I was a theist, and my family are theists, so I know I'm not misrepresenting them because I've asked them and many others. What is egotistical is to claim someone doesn't know what they are talking about when you don't know where they've come from and what knowledge they've acquired through life by asking the necessary questions, as I explained in the above post.We are not emotionless, unfeeling computers. We are human animals with sometimes irrational, emotional, imperfect brains. Acting as though holding a belief that brings one joy or peace in this world full of suffering and pain is a mental illness shows both ignorance and a lack of maturity.
To be honest, though, you're misrepresenting theists in the first place. Who are you to say why all theists hold their theistic beliefs? That's an extremely egotistical claim to make, that you know why all of these people believe this silly thing (which you, of course, don't believe because you, of course, are not silly like they are). This, again, shows ignorance and a lack of maturity. — JustSomeGuy
I was a theist, and my family are theists, so I know I'm not misrepresenting them because I've asked them and many others. What is egotistical is to claim someone doesn't know what they are talking about when you don't know where they've come from and what knowledge they've acquired through life by asking the necessary questions, as I explained in the above post. — Harry Hindu
That is my point - that when we consult our feelings rather than the empirical evidence and logic, we become irrational, and irrationality doesn't get at the truth. It only makes you feel better. — Harry Hindu
Basically, what I'm saying is how are you reaching your conclusions that, in the face of uncertainty, the best course of action is to not act with very much conviction on any of your particular beliefs. — Pseudonym
I believe with great conviction that none of us knows what is best for humanity, — JustSomeGuy
to view it as having a net negative effect so far is ignoring so much of what religion has done for the development of our societies and cultures. — JustSomeGuy
It is you that is being too dismissive because you don't understand my background and my experiences. — Harry Hindu
When I questioned the existence of God to other believers, they would respond with questions like, "Well, what happens after we die?" and "Then, how did everything get here?". By asking these questions, they are exposing their premises that they expect to live forever, and that their loved-ones still exist, and that the universe must have a creator and therefore a purpose for it and them. There is also the fear of eternal torture that is brought up. Religion scares people into believing it and it allows a small group of people to more easily control a larger group of people. Religion is a mass delusion. — Harry Hindu
Science has begun to get at these questions and even questions about consciousness. But these explanations aren't good enough for the theist because it doesn't make them feel important. Many people correlate their having a grand purpose with their importance as an individual. They want to matter in the grand scheme of things and to the greatest entity to exist, God. God's existence proves that they have a grand purpose and that they are more important than being a collection of cells that will eventually die. — Harry Hindu
I gather that, but humanity cannot simply stagnate, paralysed with uncertainty so we have to act. — Pseudonym
But each of our actions affects others, so each person's beliefs will affect you in some way, and your beliefs will affect others, because we act on our beliefs — Pseudonym
I would also argue that inaction is no different to action in the extent to which it affects others — Pseudonym
Whatever effect religion has on your society you are deciding with conviction that you are happy to allow that effect to continue, by your failure to act against it. — Pseudonym
To put it another way, we each have the same choice to make - how much religion do we think it is our duty to allow/encourage in our society, based on its consequences? How is "none" any less valid an answer to that question than "some" or "loads"? — Pseudonym
I'm not sure you're understood the meaning of the word 'net'. It means taking all the good things and weighing them against the bad. — Pseudonym
Are you suggesting that you've already carried out that weighing excersice and anyone reaching a different conclusion to you must automatically be wrong regardless of what arguments or evidence they bring? Doesn't that sound a bit like the great hubris you've been vigorously decrying? — Pseudonym
Science has begun to get at these questions and even questions about consciousness. But these explanations aren't good enough for the theist — Harry Hindu
I would say in the case of believing in God it does. Personally I believe in God and I'm a Christian. If it's a bunch of hokum, as some believe - a delusion, according to Dawkins - then I'd say it's a pretty crazy belief. It's often been mocked as such - the 'flying spaghetti monster' argument. It's a risk that theists take. Whether it adds up to a clinical diagnosis, I'm not qualified to say. — Cuthbert
My point was that a rational person, looking at all of the evidence and the history, could only conclude that religion has been a net benefit thus far. — JustSomeGuy
To put it another way, we each have the same choice to make - how much religion do we think it is our duty to allow/encourage in our society, based on its consequences? How is "none" any less valid an answer to that question than "some" or "loads"? — Pseudonym
This is a pretty extraordinary statement. Do you really believe that we should forbid people to believe certain things. If so, how are you different from ISIS? How do you enforce your edicts? Inquisition? Reeducation? Are you from the US? What about the First Amendment? Is it time to toss it out?
The things you are saying make you seem like more of a zealot than any Christian I've met. — T Clark
What makes him different from ISIS? Are you kidding me? He is clearly just vocalizing that we should discourage religion and express our issues with it. It doesn't mean walk door to door telling religious people they are wrong, let alone killing every religious person. — SonJnana
how much religion do we think it is our duty to allow/encourage in our society — Pseudonym
Why shouldn't we be able to express why we think religion is wrong? How are you different from ISIS? How do you enforce your edicts? Inquisition? Reeducation? Are you from the US? What about the First Amendment? Is it time to toss it out? — SonJnana
If Pseudonym is saying we should be intolerant, then I don't agree with that. But I'll let Pseudonym defend that rather than possibly misrepresent Pseudonym's position. — SonJnana
To put it another way, we each have the same choice to make - how much religion do we think it is our duty to allow/encourage in our society, based on its consequences? — Pseudonym
So, I'm still genuinely confused about the agnostic, tolerant position you guys seem to be advocating. — Pseudonym
Seems like a really bad analogy. The specifics of religion are clearly cultural. People aren't born Christians or Muslims. People do seem to be born homo- or heterosexual. — T Clark
like say ISIS for example. It is our duty to not allow that. — SonJnana
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