Yeah, as Michael's quote captures, it's this idea of 'self-reliance' that is seen undermined by initiatives like UBI; the question of 'dependency' and the apparent correlative danger to 'freedom' is also one of the big motivators against it. I'd say that such arguments trade on incredibly thin and entirely unrealistic conceptions of freedom and individuality, but that's the general tenor of the argument against it, I think. Hannah Arendt once argued that freedom began where the concern with the necessities of life ended - a UBI would be a nice step on the way to securing something like an Arendtian freedom, which I find incredibly attractive.
The biggest danger with UBI I think isn't the idea itself: it's the fact that it can be leaned upon as a excuse to shut down other areas of public investment, and perhaps act as a spur to unnecessary privatization as well. While I do think any UBI should be leveraged to cut down on other social security initiatives, any such trade-off would need to be carefully calculated and weighed against specific circumstances. The worry is that UBI will be used as an excuse for what would amount to a public firesale. That would be awful.
how are we going to get all the less desirable jobs done? Who on earth would opt to clean sewers just to get a bit of extra spending money? — Pseudonym
Status and adequate pay will get the jobs done now, where as in the victorian period, the attraction was mostly pecuniary, and maybe not much career choice. — Bitter Crank
without UBI we can get these jobs done for a pittance, with UBI we're going to have to pay people more and improve their job satisfaction in order to get them done. — Pseudonym
This sounds more like a sociology come politics mix rather than anything remotely philosophy? — celebritydiscodave
I think the great advantage of UBI (from my own pro-capitalist point of view) is that entrepreneurial adventure is more likely to spontaneously develop.
If your basic income that keeps you alive and kicking comes without strings attached, then you can relax, and when you get bored with doing nothing, you are then free to gradually cobble together and tailor your own supplemental income as you fancy. You can save, you can incrementally take risks. And that's going to encourage people to fill in all sorts of economic micro-niches. — gurugeorge
it would be disastrous if it were just laid on top of the existing welfare system — gurugeorge
In some ways, the social service welfare system is an employment program, NOT for the recipients of services but for the employees who deliver and administer it. — Bitter Crank
I wish socialists in the best sense ... would actually get their hands dirty and help people set up things like that. It would be more rewarding for them too. — gurugeorge
Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. Society is a joint-stock company, in which the members agree, for the better securing of his bread to each shareholder, to surrender the liberty and culture of the eater. The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators, but names and customs.
Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist.
The Shaker communities were one such example, now extinct (they believed in celibacy). — Bitter Crank
given the increasingly dystopian nature of cities — gurugeorge
its costs are starting to outweigh its benefits for most people). — gurugeorge
Cities often wreck themselves by trying "urban renewal" where high-value buildings replace low value buildings (the kind that house restaurants, art galleries, porn shops, bars--all the stuff that leads to an interesting street. — Bitter Crank
I stand by my prediction — gurugeorge
Somebody will just have to wait and see. — Bitter Crank
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