Men get raped in prison regardless of whether or not they look like women, so I really don't see the relevance. — JustSomeGuy
Hmmm, sounds like the standard experience of anyone being in prison. — Bitter Crank
Are you being deliberately obtuse? — unenlightened
Of course the social role of "white" exists; and "black" and "gay" and all others. Stereotypes and social roles exist because we are not all one big cultural frappe, the same everywhere. Cultural groups are just unique enough to be noticeable. So, what is the "white" social role? Among other things, it's a distinctive kind of language (depending on geography); it's certain kinds of food and clothing preferences; it's a way of relating to institutions (like the police or government officials) that is a bit different than other people's; it's a generally practiced style of self-presentation. Han Chinese, Nigerians, Argentinians, Ugandans, Indonesians, Zimbabweans, Russians, Peruvians, French, Italians, Swedish, Canadians... pick a group, any group, and there will be a certain style of "XYZ" culture which will be unique to a particular time and place. — Bitter Crank
I think maybe what WfPOMO might be saying is that there is arguably a male role that is derived from some set of rationally justifiable beliefs about being male, — Pseudonym
I think maybe what WfPOMO might be saying is that there is arguably a male role that is derived from some set of rationally justifiable beliefs about being male, whereas the 'white' role is only stereotypes, nothing more than the pursuit of power evident in all humanity which, means that, by virtue of historical power plays alone, whites have largely adopted expressions of power where they can. Nothing about being 'white' directly caused them to do this. — Pseudonym
A 'male' role is arguably, not a role a woman would adopt even if they could. According to the logic behind it, its largely to do with greater average physical strength and the inability to suckle children. So, the theory goes, women would not adopt the typical male roles because they are not, on average, stronger, and they can suckle children. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this argument (although I have a great deal of sympathy for it), I'm just saying there is one.
With race, however, whilst a few extreme racists exist who have ideas about racial differences leading to behavioural differences, most people who exhibit 'white' stereotypes do so by virtue of the historical context alone, meaning that had history taken a different route, blacks would have adopted this role instead.
So the argument is, nothing about their 'whiteness' causes them directly to adopt this role, whereas something about a man's 'male-ness' causes him to adopt the roles he does. — Pseudonym
I never said it was, you did--that's been my point this whole time. — JustSomeGuy
You listed some stereotypes, claiming that doing them would mean you are "acting in the role of man". — JustSomeGuy
These "roles" you speak of are just stereotypes. — JustSomeGuy
According to you, I am not a man because I don't do these stereotypical "male" things. — JustSomeGuy
And yet despite not doing any of them, I am a man. It's almost as if being a man means nothing more than having a Y chromosome, just as being white means nothing more than having a certain skin tone....anything beyond that is a stereotype. — JustSomeGuy
Somebody then suggested that races--white, black, Native American, etc.--are roles just like man and woman are roles, and I showed how that is false. Nothing more, nothing less. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
The point I tried to make is that race is not biological — WISDOMfromPO-MO
You have provided zero evidence for your claim other than "because I say so". — JustSomeGuy
I'd also like to make clear that my claim was that gender roles are based on stereotypes--no different than racial roles/stereotypes — JustSomeGuy
and you have yet to show why gender stereotypes are different from racial stereotypes in any significant way, which was your original claim. — JustSomeGuy
If race is not biological, why are children born the same race as their parents? How can we find our racial ancestry by looking at our DNA? How can forensic scientists tell what race a person is based on their blood? — JustSomeGuy
I have made clear that I believe that conflating stereotypes and social roles is a fallacy. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Again, race is socially/culturally constructed based on arbitrary characteristics. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
The fact that you won't acknowledge that the "acts" you listed are stereotypes does not mean I created a straw man. — JustSomeGuy
Racial classification is...based on biological clustering of physiological traits within geographic populations. — JustSomeGuy
And it is completely culturally constructed and corresponds to no known biological reality. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Gender is not biology. Man and woman are not biology. Male and female are biology. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Some people take this view as a strategy to free people from supposing that black youth are "naturally more violent" than white youth, or that "blacks have natural rhythm", rather than recognizing that "negroid people" came from Africa, and that whites with blond hair and blue eyes come from Northern Europe, and that Asians generally do not look like either Africans or Europeans.
No.
I juxtaposed sex, a biological fact, and gender, a role a person plays. Nothing more, nothing less.
Somebody then suggested that races--white, black, Native American, etc.--are roles just like man and woman are roles, and I showed how that is false. Nothing more, nothing less. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
That's not all I'm saying. You're being purposely obtuse.How am I being inconsistent? I'm simply saying that "it's true" isn't a good defence against the accusation that what you're saying is violent. I have no interest in debating whether or not transwomen are women. — Michael
Your post suggests that 1) transwomen are men and that 2) it isn't violence to tell the truth. We're probably never going to agree about 1), so let's address 2):
Is telling a fat and ugly person that they're fat and ugly a form of violence? If we accept that the term "violence" covers psychological violence, and not just physical violence, then I think it is a form of violence. It's certainly something people say to bully.
:-} And I'm saying is that NOT telling them it's true isn't a defense against the accusation of violence.All I am trying to say is that "it's true" isn't a defense against the accusation of violence. — Michael
Of course you have - by saying it is harmful to tell them the truth — Harry Hindu
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