-if you want to go to heaven, choose 1.
- if hell is OK by you, pick 2.

-if you want to go to heaven, choose 1.
- if hell is OK by you, pick 2. — Wayfarer

Can you clarify what you mean? For me, the situation is perfect to exercise our free will, supposing that we have one. If we look to everyone as past friends good enough - that's the easy way out. Then there's the flip side - they're enemies too. This is the difficult path in a manner of speaking and puts us back in the driver's seat - choosing goodness despite the circumstances; it's stronger and more meaningful.

What do you think?

Can you clarify what you mean? — TheMadFool

In actual fact, the final aim of Buddhist teaching is neither heaven, nor hell, but Nirvāṇa:

the Buddha's teaching is not a nihilism that gives suffering humanity no better hope than a final cold nothingness. On the contrary, it is a teaching of salvation (niyyanika-dhamma) or deliverance (vimutti) which attributes to man the faculty to realize by his own efforts the highest goal, Nibbana, the ultimate cessation of suffering and the final eradication of greed, hatred and delusion. Nibbana is far from being the blank zero of annihilation; yet it also cannot be identified with any form of God-idea, as it is neither the origin nor the immanent ground or essence of the world. — Nyanoponika Thera

Buddhism and the God Idea.

But, on a day-to-day level, I would have thought that having friends was obviously superior to having enemies, and that feelings of friendliness are superior to those of enmity. But if you don't think that is self-evident, then I'm afraid I can't really explain it.

//edit//

Reading your reply again:

choosing goodness despite the circumstances; it's stronger and more meaningful. — TheMadFool

That is what I'm getting at, so agree - I was just having a bit of trouble interpreting your meaning.//

Another point about karma that ought to be mentioned - karma is not fatalism. It is often taken to be a fatalist attitude and indeed can become that - ‘it’s their karma’ - but in my view, that is not the intent of the idea, nor the real meaning. At every moment, karma is one factor, and sometimes and inexorable or overwhelming factor. But there is also always the possibility of transcending karma - see this page,

We know a song about that.

In actual fact, the final aim of Buddhist teaching is neither heaven, nor hell, but Nirvāṇa: — Wayfarer

I'm not that clear on the issue of the distinction between nirvana and heaven. The former is to do with, as the quote says ''ultimate cessation of suffering'' and the latter is, well, a place that fits the description of nirvana. The way I make sense of this is that, from a Buddhist perspective, heaven is as temporary as the other other 5 realms of existence while nirvana is eternal. If I may ask what is the main difference between heaven and nirvana?

That is what I'm getting at, so agree - I was just having a bit of trouble interpreting your meaning.// — Wayfarer

It's ok, I wasn't clear enough. One thing I want to ask is, should we do good out of fear of hell or desire for reward (heaven)? All religions seem to have some version of this carrot-stick paradigm and while it makes sense (justice, causality) I feel something is amiss. Perhaps there's no way of escaping reason and the business like profit-loss paradigm it engenders. I don't know. I find the reward-punishment system too selfish to qualify as good.

Am I being stupid by asking the impossible, the complete removal of the self/ego? How can one play a game without existing?

Another point about karma that ought to be mentioned - karma is not fatalism. — Wayfarer

I agree. While the actions of others are beyond our control we can decide on how to react. I have some questions on free will but that's another post.

Thanks.

We know a song about that — unenlightened

Great song. Thanks.

Samsara is the realms of existence. I'm not sure but there are supposedly 6 realms - gods, demigods, humans, hungry ghosts, and hell — TheMadFool

My advice is to consult the Dungeon Master's Guide for more information.

My advice is to consult the Dungeon Master's Guide for more information. — charleton

Alas I'm not privileged with guides. I walk alone - I think I always have.

One thing I want to ask is, should we do good out of fear of hell or desire for reward (heaven)? All religions seem to have some version of this carrot-stick paradigm and while it makes sense (justice, causality) I feel something is amiss. Perhaps there's no way of escaping reason and the business like profit-loss paradigm it engenders. I don't know. I find the reward-punishment system too selfish to qualify as good. — TheMadFool

Perfectly agree. All organic life operates according to reward and punishment. That's one of the reasons I detested behaviourism so much - I wanted to write a critical essay about Skinner's 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity' and call it 'beyond reward and punishment'. It remains a truism that good an bad actions bear their fruit accordingly, but Nirvāṇa is outside all of that, it is beyond even what we generally understand as 'good'.

Am I being stupid by asking the impossible, the complete removal of the self/ego? How can one play a game without existing? — TheMadFool

There's nothing to remove! There's only the sense of 'me and mine' which refers everything back to itself. What happens to your fist when you open your hand?

I think not. You seem to be at the mercy of eastern crackpots

Nirvāṇa is outside all of that, it is beyond even what we generally understand as 'good'. — Wayfarer

That's something to chew on. Thanks.

I think nirvana is a state that transcends causality. To break free of the causal web that seems to be all pervading. Just guessing.

What happens to your fist when you open your hand? — Wayfarer

Do you mean the ego is an illusion?

I think not. You seem to be at the mercy of eastern crackpots — charleton

Well Eastern ''crackpots'' seem to have explored the inner universe and Western crackpots have directed their attention externally. Don't you agree?

Do you mean the ego is an illusion? — TheMadFool

Easy to say, hard to perceive!

Not sure what sect if Buddhism you are drawing from but your OP is equivalent to conferring upon Catholicism the beliefs of a Born Again Evangelistic religion.

The core of Buddhism are the For Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path, the interpretations of which lead to enumerable limbs on the Buddhist Tree. Reincarnation and Karma are not core and are subject too all kinds of differing beliefs and interpretations.

The four noble truths are linked to Karma and its influence on our lives in Samsara. The 8 fold path is, in a manner of speaking, the way out.

Easy to say, hard to perceive! — Wayfarer

Perception at a different level I guess. Perhaps words fail to capture what nirvana is. May be it's like fire, glowing with light but too hot to approach and we spend our time moving in a circle around it, trying to express its meaning from a safe distance, struggling against the limits of what can be expressed.

Actually the etymology of Nirvāṇa is ‘blowing out’ - extinction of the flames of greed, delusion and hatred. Most often it is described in negative terms, as not being this, or not being that, although sometimes it is also described positively.

Actually the etymology of Nirvāṇa is ‘blowing out’ - extinction of the flames of greed, delusion and hatred. Most often it is described in negative terms, as not being this, or not being that, although sometimes it is also described positively. — Wayfarer

What's left is more important than what's taken away. I think nirvana transcends human-ness, even life itself. After all, it is asking us to blow out things that form the essence of being human - desire, family, love, hate, etc. According to the Buddha, then, life itself is a delusion, at least the way we're wont to conceive of it.

I don’t think life itself is described as a delusion, anywhere in Buddhism. What’s delusory is attachment and attributing the wrong value to things. A bit of Buddhist iconography expresses it - the pig, chicken and snake, representing greed, stupidity and hatred, pursue each other around a vicious circle:

Well Eastern ''crackpots'' seem to have explored the inner universe and Western crackpots have directed their attention externally. Don't you agree? — TheMadFool

Not at all.

The four noble truths are linked to Karma and its influence on our lives in Samsara. The 8 fold path is, in a manner of speaking, the way out. — TheMadFool

No. The Four Noble Truths stand as a philosophical insight. One can simply accept them as they are. One approach, my approach, is moderation (The Middle Way). I'm not trying to escape anything. Just accepting. But if one wishes to extend the Truths into something more, one is free to do so and I doing so create a tree within Buddhism. Karma itself can be interpreted in many ways. For me it is simply a way of describing the learning process of evolving life.

(Y) Thanks Wayfarer

The Four Noble Truths stand as a philosophical insight. — Rich

Correct. But what does it motivate but an escape from suffering?

To switch traditions, my interpretation of 'Blessed are those who suffer, for they will be comforted' is that those who realise the intrinsically tragic nature of worldly existence, will seek the higher truth by which they are released from suffering.

Correct. But what does it motivate but an escape from suffering? — TheMadFool

It is an observation that is all. Everyone may and probably will react differently.

To switch traditions, my interpretation of 'Blessed are those who suffer, for they will be comforted' is that those who realise the intrinsically tragic nature of worldly existence, will seek the higher truth by which they are released from suffering. — Wayfarer

I think there's something about suffering that makes it ''beneficial''.

Evolution has preserved the suffering package for all life. Every living thing can feel pain and suffer. Some say that an inability to feel pain would be harmful. For instance lepers and diabetics who suffer nerve damage (losing the ability to feel pain) are prone to injury, infection, disfigurement and death.

Religion also makes a big deal of suffering. Your quote seems to reinforce my thoughts on the matter. Although the ultimate goal of religion is to escape suffering, religion makes a path of pain. Pain is a way of seeing the divine. I don't know the reason for this but may be suffering switches on our empathy and that makes for a good person.

It is an observation that is all. Everyone may and probably will react differently. — Rich

Truths lead to thoughts and these, in turn, lead to action.

Truths lead to thoughts and these, in turn, lead to action. — TheMadFool

It's a simple observation which may or may not cause a reaction. Forget the Truth things.

It's a simple observation which may or may not cause a reaction. Forget the Truth things. — Rich

This is something I've been thinking about too. Knowledge guides our thoughts and actions but the strange fact is we may choose not to be so.

By the way, what do you think of my puzzle? Are we friends or foes?

We c are just two souls who are evolving by learning and creating. Whether we consider each other friends, foes or otherwise is a changeable state of mind.

The irony of those who transformed the Four Noble Truths into some game of seeking Enlightenment is that all they have done is ignore the Noble Truths by creating a huge desire for themselves. The Middle Way avoids this by simply practicing moderation.

1. Samsara is the realms of existence. I'm not sure but there are supposedly 6 realms - gods, demigods, humans, hungry ghosts, and hell. — TheMadFool

You only named 5. Did you leave out Heaven?

My understanding is that Heavens and Hells are said to be temporary experiences before reincarnation.

I don't know what metaphysical mechanism or support there is for the notion of incarnations other than those in worldly life.

According to Buddhism we're born and reborn in these 6 realms depending on our Karma (see below)

2. Karma or the law of Karma decides our birth and circumstances of our lives. Karma basically means good actions are rewarded with good lives and bad actions are punished with pain. So, being born in heaven is due to our good karma and suffering in hell is due to bad karma.

What I'm about to say is nothing more than a corollary of the two Buddhist beliefs I outlined above.

According to 1 and 2 we've been born countless number of times in Samsara.

Who says? Who says how many lives you've lived. They say it's a finite number of times, and I agree. The number of lives before one's end-of-lives ls likely to be large.

But I claim that the matter of whether you've lived past lives is completely indeterminate (not just unknowable). It isn't true that either you have or haven't.

Each time we're born we have parents, siblings, friends AND enemies and this has been repeating until our present lives.

Well, if all the above is true, then each person in our world has been a parent, a friend, a relative i.e
someone we love, trust and nurture. But, by the same token, each person has also been an enemy - someone we hate, fear and harm.

Those things don't follow. Who says that the people in your world in this life were in previous lives of yours?

Michael Ossipoff

My question is how should we view other people in our lives, friends or foes? — TheMadFool

You need to take each person as they come, and ignore the bullshit about karma and reincarnation: there is no universal justice.
Shit happens; then you die. Spread some fun and kindness.
Only with these axioms can you fully enjoy your life and make it better for others, whilst they exist.

Shit happens; then you die. Spread some fun and kindness.
Only with these axioms can you fully enjoy your life and make it better for others, whilst they exist. — charleton

Indeed that is the best option. Metaphysics is a dud.

Take it as a game. Assume Buddhism is true. What then?

I ask because Buddhists are very fond of how the many lives notion makes us all related and that, therefore, we should love each other. They never mention the obvious corollary that, by the same token, we're all enemies too.