White people are largely invisible to themselves in a way that different toned ethenticities can never be. I don't think many white people consider themselves privileged because their view of themselves in aggregate is too entwined in the culture they dominate.
— Cavacava
Is this a virtue or a fault? — Bitter Crank
Because we don't control every bad thing that can happen to us, nor can we control it. Obviously.But why is suffering "just" the nature of life? That's a cop out. — Noble Dust
Well let's see... suffering. You love someone, they don't love you back, you get sick, you suffer pain, you get bored, there are diseases, illnesses, handicaps, there are accidents that can occur, you lose loved ones, etc. Need I go on? This has nothing to do with society, it's suffering that is intrinsic to the nature of existence.Exactly. Peterson and co. just treat the cause of suffering as being the fault of or caused by no one, or if anyone caused it it's the people who are being hurt by it caused it. Nope, there's no such thing as a prejudiced system wherein some people are given preference for reasons other than competency. — MindForged
Exactly. Peterson and co. just treat the cause of suffering as being the fault of or caused by no one, or if anyone caused it it's the people who are being hurt by it caused it. — MindForged
Because we don't control every bad thing that can happen to us, nor can we control it. Obviously. — Agustino
I'm asking why life is suffering, if that is indeed the case. — Noble Dust
The Garden of Eden seems to be the only explanation there; the other options are just observations of descriptions. — Noble Dust
developmental factors like parents, teachers, socio-economic status, etc., are not in our control initially. The question now is how personal autonomy is developed/attained. — Noble Dust
The G of E story is the prime explanation of all our misfortunes, and since it is archetypal, everything else is going to seem like a footnote. That life is unsatisfactory or that we are neurotic is as foundational as the story of Adam's and Eve's expulsion from paradise. It only lacks the nicety of narrative form. — Bitter Crank
Bad things happen in life because we are fragile and nature is rough. — Bitter Crank
we create at least some of the unsatisfactory reality from which we suffer. — Bitter Crank
But autonomous individuals are as subject to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as any one else is. — Bitter Crank
Bad things happen in life because we are fragile and nature is rough. — Bitter Crank
P1. Stress, great displeasure and depression are evolved responses. — Pseudonym
P2. Stress, great displeasure and depression are very harmful to the survival of the individual. — Pseudonym
P3. Humans evolved through a process of evolution through natural selection. — Pseudonym
C1. From P1-3, if the natural state of humans was high levels of stress and depression we would either have died out, or e would have had to evolve ways in which they were not so harmful to our survival. — Pseudonym
C2. It cannot be the case that states which cause high levels of stress and depression are the 'natural' state for humans. — Pseudonym
So what? — Noble Dust
So what is the "natural" state? — Noble Dust
Its a logical argument disputing the idea that we've 'always' struggled against the cruelty of nature and 'always' will, there is no "so". — Pseudonym
The state in which we evolved, hunter-gatherers. — Pseudonym
I guess I'm engaging in this thread at all because I actually want to ask "why are we fragile?" and "why is nature rough?" I'm having a toddler moment. I'm not satisfied with these placations and admonishments about how "shit happens", etc. — Noble Dust
Agreed. But that relates to the issue of autonomy/development. When we create our own suffering, are we doing it because of developmental lack, or does everyone do it, no matter how "developed" they are? What the fuck does it mean to be "developed"? — Noble Dust
I hear this kind of argument so often and yet have always failed to understand it properly. I have little hope that an Internet forum is going to break decades of mystery for me, but on the off-chance - what do you mean by "meaning/purpose"? — Pseudonym
something other than happiness — Pseudonym
. So you can't even make whatever argument you're trying to make here without one. Meaning or purpose is inherent, but not always acknowledged. — Noble Dust
But, what might we want, other than happiness? Is there something else to desire, other than happiness? — Noble Dust
Well exactly. If you don't even have an alternative, what is it that makes you think happiness isn't it? — Pseudonym
So evolutionarily obtained happiness is your meaning or purpose? — Noble Dust
I didn't say I don't have an alternative. — Noble Dust
What good is an evolutionarily obtained happiness if it ends at around 70 years old? Who gives a fuck? — Noble Dust
What good is happiness if it doesn't end? — Pseudonym
But we're not talking about a 'possibility'. — Pseudonym
The 'possibility' exists that after my life persuing evolutionarily derived happiness I somehow spend an eternity in bliss. That would be lovely. I don't see what that's got to do with meaning or purpose. — Pseudonym
So now, when we get to religion, we're no longer talking about a 'possibility' requiring 'imagination'. We're talking about an actual human being claiming to know what people 'should' do in order to achieve this bliss. Doesn't sound very imaginative to me, sounds pretty determined. — Pseudonym
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