Is this an infomercial. — René Descartes

Tourism is good for their economies.

if one accepts our premise that abortion is murder. — Thorongil

That there is the clincher, though.

I mean... if we're going to rely upon scientific fact alone then why not?

There's certainly more being imported into assertions here than mere scientific fact. The similarity isn't completely out there. But if we believe in more than mere facts, like most people, then.... maybe it is. But it is also not quite right to then claim that you're being "purely scientific" or "biological"

You're playing with words here. You know what Thorongil is saying. If it's not murder, what is it? What is the word for immoral killing of another human, whether or not it's illegal? — T Clark

Wrongful killing?

The problem here is that the claim I was responding to was this:

There is a moral duty not to murder it once alive. — Thorongil

If we are to understand the word "murder" as meaning "wrongfully kill" then he is claiming that there is a moral duty not to wrongfully kill it once alive, which is trivially true, but also question-begging in context, as the argument is over whether or not abortion is wrongful killing, and so doesn't satisfactorily answer the accusation it was responding to ("you have not demonstrated objectively that once a thing has been identified as a human being it is automatically a moral duty to keep it alive").

This is why words matter. I'm not playing here, but clearing up the ambiguity caused by loaded language.

I would need to think about and determine whether all the items you list are proscribed by the natural law — Thorongil

WTF! Who put you in charge of what things are proscribed by natural law?

[Delete] @Baden

[Delete] @Baden

I agree with you and LT for the most part, except that I would say that abortion should be legal if the mother's life is in danger - she should have that choice. Otherwise, in most other cases (excluding rape, etc.) it should be illegal.

Don't approve of abortions? Then don't have one. — Bitter Crank

Nature did not give me the power to have one :rofl:

I think everything that's immoral should be illegal. — Thorongil

No, you probably don't think that. Do you think gluttony should be illegal? Not everything immoral ought to be illegal because not everything immoral has harmful consequences on third-parties. We only make those immoral actions which have harmful consequences on third-parties illegal. If an immoral action harms just the doer, then there are no grounds for it to be outlawed.

It's gunning down people who made it all the way to personhood, a name, preferences, friends, lovers, etc. that outrages people. — Bitter Crank

No.

It's a woman's right to choose if she wants a child or not. — René Descartes

That might be true, but misses the point of the pro-life argument, which is that the unborn child is said to have a right to live, and that this right to live is more important than the woman's right to choose.

I don't see anything wrong with abortion. It's a woman's right to choose if she wants a child or not. — René Descartes

And you believe in God?

If an immoral action harms just the doer, then there are no grounds for it to be outlawed. — Agustino

Are you OK with voluntary euthanasia, then?

And you believe in God? — Agustino

It's almost as if religious people are just making this stuff up.

Are you OK with voluntary euthanasia, then? — Michael

Not sure.

I mean, in most cases I would say it is immoral, BUT, I'm not sure there should be a law against it.

I don't see anything wrong with abortion. It's a woman's right to choose if she wants a child or not.
— René Descartes
And you believe in God? — Agustino

There is absolutely NO contradiction here. Abortion, infanticide and abandonment of unwanted children was common in Jesus' time. He made NO pronouncements against these practices
.

:rofl:

He absolutely did. That you would think that the Jews would approve of infanticide is idiocy. Have you read the second book of the Torah, the Exodus?

Are we counting the Old Testament, then?

And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction, all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” — 1 Samuel 15

And as you mentioned Exodus, remember the tenth plague?

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Yeah what's the problem with that as punishment from God? They never accepted it as a moral practice in-itself. Just like murder in-itself is wrong, but, in self-defence, in certain circumstances, for example, it is acceptable.

Please quote your sources anytime you feel able.

Despite infanticide and abortion being permitted under the law, Jesus was COMPLETELY mute on the topic.

I simply provided sources that showed God approved of infanticide (whether by his own hand or by the hand of another, e.g. Saul), even if in certain circumstances.

Despite infanticide and abortion being permitted under the law, — charleton

No it wasn't.

I simply provided sources that showed God approved of infanticide (whether by his own hand or by the hand of another, e.g. Saul), even if in certain circumstances. — Michael

Nope.

If someone kills another person in self-defence it doesn't mean that they approve of murder.

Nope. — Agustino

Yes. It's right there in the quotes. God killed the firstborn of Egypt. God told Saul to kill children and infants.

Yes. It's right there in the quotes. God killed the firstborn of Egypt. God told Saul to kill children and infants. — Michael

So what? That doesn't mean He approves of infanticide. Just like someone doesn't approve of murder if they kill another person in self-defence.

So what? That doesn't mean He approves of infanticide. Just like someone doesn't approve of murder if they kill another person in self-defence. — Agustino

Infanticide is the intentional killing of infants. God intentionally killed infants. He told Saul to intentionally kill infants.

Infanticide is the intentional killing of infants. God intentionally killed infants. He told Saul to intentionally kill infants. — Michael

Right, and you'll do a sophistry and define murder as the unlawful killing of someone. Sure. *shakes head* :confused:

It's not sophistry. It's what it means.

What do you mean by "murder" and "infanticide"?

"murder" = killing another living creature, but especially a human being.
"infanticide" = killing babies or children.