It's not at all startling if you're versed in some of the more recent developments in evolutionary theory. — StreetlightX
And for the mistaken view the biology is a branch of physics, you can try something like Robert Rosen's Life Itself. — StreetlightX
Even Dawkins, that doyen of evolutionary ‘reductionism’ is all too happy to admit that natural selection does and can in fact favour certain ‘directions’ of evolution: — StreetlightX
but I only mention him to show that even the most hardcore of old-schoolers need to admit such views into their frameworks — StreetlightX
It occurred to me after I read it that the last chapter could have been presented as a stand-alone essay. I don't know if anybody would have read it, though.(also, filler?? No way!).. — StreetlightX
It's not at all startling if you're versed in some of the more recent developments in evolutionary theory. That evolution is simply a matter of 'random changes' is now a bit of an outdated notion, although it still serves well in serving as a bulwark against creationist or theological views, which is why, perhaps, it is so often repeated. In any case, there's a ton that could be said here, but I'll take as representative this statement from Jablonka and Lamb's magnificent book, Evolution in Four Dimensions: — StreetlightX
Emergent purpose... that would be a big deal. Future historians of science would want to pinpoint exactly how and when scientists started thinking in those terms. — Mongrel
So again, all the resources are there! We know all about this stuff, in detail, with plenty of scientific backing. People just need to read them, take them up, and digest them. — StreetlightX
The difference is between a telos which is in some way 'pre-existant' and 'external' to the system, and a telos which is generated internally by the system itself. A difference between transcendent and immanent telos. — StreetlightX
But, a third possibility, I think, is that of a telos that is "pre-existent" and yet not "external to the system", not transcendent but nonetheless infinite and eternal, and yet a fully immanent telos. — John
Thus Apo is perfectly right to note that the necessity of survival itself 'makes' the contingencies involved 'matter', and that it is the interplay of necessity and chance that drives the evolutionary process as a whole (Why he thinks I somehow deny this is beyond me, then then again, confrontation and disagreement is simply his modus operandi).
In any case, the question is about the modality of these necessities themselves. — StreetlightX
But there is also another view that can be developed by focusing in the necessity and teleology involved. — apokrisis
I'm not convinced that we really can "account for the generation of necessity" at all, or even, more modestly, account for necessity. Necessity is always presupposed in all our thinking and we are hobbled by the inevitably mechanical, that is deterministic, nature of our models, which is really to say the same thing. — John
And that's what is meant when it is claimed that genetic mutations are chance occurrences; that the mutations weren't made to happen intentionally. — Michael
There's no intelligent designer or genetic gremlin that realises that a certain mutation needs to happen for the organism to survive and so works to make this necessary change. — Michael
One way to think about this is to make the distinction between teleology and teleonomy. — StreetlightX
The whole point of teleology is that there is no necessity, that is what gives us free will. We are free to choose our ends, and the means. Necessity is artificial, created, it is not natural. We, as individuals, historically have created a sense of what's needed, food, shelter, etc. From this we develop a communal necessity, morality, laws, and eventually a logical necessity. Logical necessity is derived from this need, what is desired for a purpose, and this need is chosen. — Metaphysician Undercover
This is a useful distinction, between teleology and teleonomy, between the transcendent, logos and the imminent, nomos. But, a third possibility, I think, is that of a telos that is "pre-existent" and yet not "external to the system", not transcendent but nonetheless infinite and eternal, and yet a fully immanent telos.
This conception could be somewhat along the lines, for example, of Whitehead's process philosophy, where the "direction" is seen not as "generated from within the system", an idea which suggests that it is generated from scratch from the brute, so to speak, but is understood to be immanent from the beginning and evolving right along with the system. It would be a kind of heart, mind and soul, as well as spirit, of the system. — John
I meant to add that there is also Stan Salthe's hierarchical approach to a definition here that recognises various grades of telos, ranging from the brutely physical to the complexly mindful. — apokrisis
When you consider the immanent nature of intentionality, purposefulness, and observe that it is inherent within all living beings, it is hard to deny that it is prior to living bodies, and realize that mutations were intentionally made to happen. — Metaphysician Undercover
It is not that "a certain mutation needs to happen". It is the case that the living being does not know what mutation needs to happen, because the organism emerges in an environment of unknowns. Therefore, seemingly random mutations need to happen, in order that they can be judged in a process of trial and error, as the organisms become accustomed to the environment. — Metaphysician Undercover
That said, the only way I know how to make sense of a telos in this 'third' sense you mention here is through the notion of entropy, where the (necessary) cosmic dissipation of energy prompts the formation of local (contingent) negentropic eddies - one of which is life with it's concomitant processes of evolution. — StreetlightX
It's absurd to suggest that this radiation-induced damage or copy-failure occurs intentionally, as if DNA and electromagnetism have a will and want this to happen. Mystical nonsense. — Michael
So yes, humans are individuated within a historically-evolved social context. We are the product of a system of constraints. We are shaped by the culture within which we have no choice about growing up. — apokrisis
That said, the only way I know how to make sense of a telos in this 'third' sense you mention here is through the notion of entropy, where the (necessary) cosmic dissipation of energy prompts the formation of local (contingent) negentropic — StreetlightX
Living things have intentions (assuming some level of consciousness), but they don't have the power to intentionally alter their genetic code (the emerging field of genetic engineering not withstanding). — Michael
Plants don't act purposefully, they act reactively — Michael
And what do you mean by "internal source of movement"? — Michael
This is the misunderstanding that we must reject in order to properly understand the existence of life. Do you think that photosynthesis is not a purposeful act? — Metaphysician Undercover
Reread my post, I think there is a preliminary answer to this question there. If you have a specific problem, please address it to me. But don't ask me to rewrite what I just wrote, if you skipped over the passage, not taking the time to understand the words.
Try as I might I cannot begin to grasp how it could be that entropy "prompts" the formation of local negentropy. This may well be due to my lack of proper education in these matters, and I would certainly appreciate any help in understanding this that anyone might be able to offer. — John
Sorry, but in reality, information flows in one direction only:
DNA -> RNA -> Proteins. And there is no mechanism for the reverse. — tom
That is, the same DNA codon can produce different proteins, depending of the state of the cell at any one time. — StreetlightX
This is where we have a difference of opinion, as to what constitutes "purposeful". I think that the carbohydrates produced by photosynthesis are useful in the plant's future, perhaps in the flower, to attract bees. Therefore the plant produces this sugar with the intention of producing a flower, and that is done with the intention of attracting insects, and that with the intention of fulfilling reproductive needs. You restrict "intention" to "that which is carried out with conscious determination". But there is no need for such a restriction. Intention has been observed to go much deeper than the conscious level. Habitual acts are carried out intentionally, without conscious direction.Yes, I think that photosynthesis is not a purposeful act. A purposeful act is an act done by conscious determination. — Michael
Yes, this is a good description, so I am not using terms in a very different way. You distinguish between the internal and external of an object. Now consider an object, a body, in relation to Newton's first law. That body will continue in the state that it is, unless acted upon by a force. Let's say that the force is the cause of change, or motion. The force could have a source outside that body, or it could have a source from within that body. This is the difference between internal and external cause.What is the distinction between an "internal" and an "external" cause? I understand these terms as referring to the spatial location of an object, such that a thing located on one side of a wall, under a roof, is inside the house and a thing located on the other side of the wall, under the open sky, is outside the house, and that a thing located between my chest and my back is inside me and a thing located between my chest and your chest – whilst facing each other – is outside me.
You seem to be using the terms in a very different way, so I'd like it explained. — Michael
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