Yes, he said that makes us brutes. — Baden

Depends what you mean by that, because you can certainly be an atheist who values religious heritage, even though he does not believe in the dogmas. And I don't agree that that makes you a brute btw, as I said, I only agree with some of the things he said there.

the most religious societies today are the most brutish — Baden

What do you mean by brutish in this context?

What do you mean by brutish in this context? — Agustino

Willingness to resort to physical force rather than reason to address problems.

Oh, I see. People who deserved visits from the goon squads. — T Clark

Yeeeeees, exactly.

Capitalism leads to consumerism; which leads to increases in the standard of living; — T Clark

Does it? I would say capitalism only leads to increased standards of living up to a point - and after that, it doesn't anymore. Today we are pretty much in a crisis globally precisely because capitalism does not work anymore.

Today, less and less people have access to private property (including owning homes) except by taking massive loans which basically enslave them for a large portion of their lives. This isn't an increased standard of living at all. In fact, if a rational person had to choose a time to be born, it would probably be around when you were born - that was indeed a golden period for mankind (comparing to other historical times) - the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s.

corporatism — T Clark

Yes, unfortunately corporatism has been growing, which isn't a good sign either.

Willingness to resort to physical force rather than reason to address problems. — Baden

Okay I see. Some religious countries are like that, mostly Islamic ones from what I see. The Vatican is also a country, and it is not "brutish" I don't think, for the most part.

Yeeeeees, exactly. — Agustino

Am I correct in assuming you will not be one of the ones who deserve to be visited? My friend from Spain certainly thought he wouldn't be.

Am I correct in assuming you will not be one of the ones who deserve to be visited? — T Clark

I don't live in a country with goon squads anymore :P

My friend from Spain certainly thought he wouldn't be. — T Clark

Well, your friend from Spain was a young guy. You know how young guys usually are - overconfident.

Well, your friend from Spain was a young guy. You know how young guys usually are - overconfident. — Agustino

I don't know how he fared when democracy was re-established.

Plus much of Christian Africa, Buddhist Myanmar, Jewish Israel and so on... Countries infected with - if not always dominated by - religiously inspired hatred and violence.

(I'll leave it at that as we're some way off-topic.)

Today, less and less people have access to private property (including owning homes) except by taking massive loans which basically enslave them for a large portion of their lives. This isn't an increased standard of living at all. — Agustino

I was thinking more of people outside the West. China etc.

As you said, many of these major events listed have either failed, are failing or fairly fragile or simple ineffective. I don't think that democracy is undergoing a "downward spiral", but, as the political scientist Larry Diamond argues, there has been a global increase in illiberal democracy, a decrease in public confidence in democracy, and other societal and economic barriers that can question its legitimacy, leaving space open for Chinese one-party authoritarianism to enter as the alternative. It's a situation that will likely become more precarious over time.

I don't think you can meaningfully compare Japan with China, given that the former makes up 1.7% of the world's population, while the latter has 18.5%. China also first surpassed Japan's GDP in 2009, and has now since more that doubled it.

I don't think that democracy is undergoing a "downward spiral", but, as the political scientist Larry Diamond argues, there has been a global increase in illiberal democracy, a decrease in public confidence in democracy, and other societal and economic barriers that can question its legitimacy, leaving space open for Chinese one-party authoritarianism to enter as the alternative. It's a situation that will likely become more precarious over time. — Maw

Seems to me we are still in a shakeout period. A lot good has happened in the past 75 years. It takes time for the world to sort things out. The lesson of the the collapse of the Soviet Union for me is that one day it's invincible, the next day it's gone. We shall see. Well, you shall see. Unlikely I will be around long enough.

I don't think you can meaningfully compare Japan with China, given that the former makes up 1.7% of the world's population, while the latter has 18.5%. China also first surpassed Japan's GDP in 2009, and has now since more that doubled it. — Maw

I wasn't comparing the impacts of the two economies, I was only using it as a cautionary tale against making predictions with inadequate historical perspective.

Well it's certainly possible that democracy will be able to continue to prevail. As I said, I'm not one for prognostications. But if I am not outright pessimistic then I am at least cautious.

Well it's certainly possible that democracy will be able to continue to prevail. As I said, I'm not one for prognostications. But if I am not outright pessimistic then I am at least cautious. — Maw

That's fine, and I don't really disagree. I just find it annoying that, just because Donald Trump was elected president people keep running around saying "the sky is falling." As I said ever since he was elected, if he doesn't blow us all up, he'll just be another bad president. We've had a bunch in my voting lifetime and only one truly outstanding one, Obama.

outstanding one, Obama. — T Clark

Why was Obama outstanding? He left the US in tatters. Even to this day, Americans are still asking - where is the American dream?

Why was Obama outstanding? He left the US in tatters. Even to this day, Americans are still asking - where is the American dream? — Agustino

Have you ever read the book "Who Moved My Cheese?" that is where the American dream is now.
We are adapting to Trumps new route of finding the cheese, definitely a road less traveled then the one chosen by Obama.

I agree Baden.

Have you ever read the book "Who Moved My Cheese?" — ArguingWAristotleTiff

No, never read it, though I've heard about it.

We are adapting to Trumps new route of finding the cheese, definitely a road less traveled then the one chosen by Obama. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yeah, though I'm starting to doubt whether Trump will actually be able to stop the decline of the West. He is definitely patching it if you ask me - a great improvement over what Obama et al. were doing who were basically blind to the problems. But even Trump is not capable of tackling the root of the problem, which is moral in nature - something is amiss at the core of Western civilisation, with our self-understanding, with our values. People are the engine of the economy, and if people are rotten, then the economy cannot fail to reflect that. There is this lack of energy - I don't know how else to call it - in people, pretty much in the entire Western world. A great uncertainty about what should be done, a lack of confidence in the future.

I remember stories from 1960s or 1970s Italy that I've heard - it was common to get 6-8% year over year growth. Everyone was enthusiastic about the economy, everyone was starting a business of some kind, the taxi drivers, etc. The legislation was much simpler too. It was easy to get loans - very simple. And it was possible to make a lot of money very quickly, and a lot of people did, and a lot of people also lost the same money just as fast. It was "fun" to play the game - because there were opportunities that anyone could access and try their hand at. It was easy for one to both gain and lose money. Now, things have changed. Now it's difficult to lose money, and difficult to gain money. People are scared. The taxi drivers are all depressed today - they reminiscence the good old days. The energy of the West is gone.

Another worrying aspect is the spread of one-party political authoritarianism in Eastern Europe once again. The political system, in-itself, isn't a problem, but the fact that those who wield power are absolutely uneducated retards, with the brain of squirrels, who (some of them) cannot even sign their names, some have never opened a book in their lives - that is indeed a very serious problem.

At this point, many of the Eastern European countries are on the precipice of falling under Russian influence once again, which would be dreadful for anyone capable in these countries. Part of the reason why this "renessaince" of the old communist forces was possible is because capitalism only uplifted the cities and the big industrial areas, which have been sucking all the wealth. Therefore, the countrysides are all poorer than ever, and this asymmetrical development has provided the needed leverage for the "old guard" to make a comeback by banking on this growing resentment. Weak institutions have also made this comeback possible by allowing corruption & permitting legislation to be easily changed, including election rules.

In many countries, new fiscal legislation is already being passed, with increased taxes on businesses and higher wages (sometimes 50%+ in addition to special pensions) given to all state employees to fuel a "consumption-driven" economy (to be able to claim "results"), and buy votes.

I think the EU is nearing a point of crisis. At some point @unenlightened, I might need to join you and be a refugee :rofl:

This is an interesting insight into a Chinese approach to good citizenship...source: New Zealand Institute.

China is piloting a social credit system ... It is very simple. Everyone gets a social credit score. If you do good things, pro-social things – things that reinforce trust in President Xi’s institutions and encourage a sense of unity – your score goes up. Volunteering for a charity and separating your recycling can enhance your score. So can donating blood. These are all good things that must be rewarded.

If you instead decide to exhibit bad behaviours, your score goes down. Your score can go down for social microaggressions. Things like not turning up to a dinner reservation or leaving false product reviews. Ubiquitous facial recognition camera systems can assign demerit points for jaywalking. Soon they will be able to also assign demerit points for doing unmutual things – things that reduce the sense of unity and trust in institutions – like engaging in civil protest.

The Chinese pilot scheme so far rewards high-scoring citizens with things like shorter wait times in hospital and punishes low-scores with reduced access to public services and travel restrictions.

I've said this when they first introduced the concept, I'll say it again : this is a dystopian environnment in which hackers are going to thrive like never before.

I think at some point in the future China will reorganise as a monarchy. — Agustino

China votes to allow President Xi Jinping to Rule for Life.

Wave Tibet Independence flag and go to back of queue for everything :cry:

China votes to allow President Xi Jinping to Rule for Life. — Wayfarer

Yeah, I am aware of that already. But at the moment it's an autocratic rule, not a monarchy. Sort of that "officially" not for life, but "really" for life.

However, for China, Luce states that two prized historic events for modern China are "China's detonation of the Hydrogen bomb in 1964," and "Britain's transfer of Hong Kong to China in 1997." Both examples, "show China's deep-rooted desire to be treated with respect and dignity." — Maw

A curious thing about China is that the historic events they tend to most dwell on are not of great victories and achievements but quite the opposite: defeats and humiliations - at the hands of foreigners, of course. Ressentiment is strong in traditional ideological propaganda, and the people seem to take well to it.

(This is gotten second- and third-hand, so take this with a grain of salt.)

I think the time has come for all of us to return to constitutional monarchies, with one life-time ruler whose powers are limited by the Constitution, but who is in charge of the country and does not have to worry about losing power as much as rulers do in democracies. — Agustino

So who writes the Constitutions?

So who writes the Constitutions? — Pseudonym

The Parliament could write it. But more importantly than that, is that it should be very difficult to change the Constitution once it is written.

I don't know how old you are, so I don't know what perspective you are judging from. Let me make a list of major events in the course of liberal democracy since the end of WWII:

Reconstruction and rise of Europe. End to centuries of conflict
Reconstruction and rise of Japan and Korea
The United Nations
The breakup of the Soviet Union
Democracy in Eastern Europe
Independence of former European colonies
[*} Democratization of formerly authoritarian regimes
The end of Apartheid
The European Union
The Arab Spring
The rise of second string and third string economic powers - Brazil, China, India — T Clark

Your outlook seems to be stuck sometime 20 years ago. I remember, it felt like a hopeful time then. The fall of the Communist empire, the end of Apartheid, old seemingly intractable conflicts, like the one in Northern Ireland, finally dissolving, peace in Cambodia, the end of the Iran-Iraq war, Israelies negotiating with Palestinians, Pinochet's regime winding down... Of course, I was young then, and fortuitously situated to experience some of those events first-hand. But even accounting for the changes that advancing years bring to one's outlook, it's hard to deny that times have changed, and we are not living in the same period any more.

The Parliament could write it. But more importantly than that, is that it should be very difficult to change the Constitution once it is written. — Agustino

So if the current parliament writes it, is that not just making rule-by-mob in perpetuity? Do you honestly trust our current parliaments to come up with a Constitution which you'd be prepared to give absolute authority to?

Equality of opportunity, for example, is very popular at the moment, it seems very likely that if current world parliaments were to write a Constitution, such a concept might well be enshrined in it, would you be happy with such a rule being immutable law?

Shameless bump.

I wanted to post a similar topic but found this one more than good enough to address these issues.

One perspective that others haven't taken into consideration is the fact that China has integrated a robust economy into its central management system. They seemed to have been able to solve the management problem (effective allocation of resources) that the Soviets faced under a central command economy. Some people call this a hybrid economy, but I digress.

What I see happening is that China is embracing technology unlike any other nation from a central command. Sure, surveillance is one of the prime motivators for doing this; but, for reasons mentioned already I can somewhat understand. I see the future of China as a technocracy subverted to the demands of the communist party.

Does anyone have legitimate fears of China becoming jingoistic? I don't really have anything empirical to support such a notion. I can't help but feel that having China as a future superpower eclipsing America as a win-win situation for the world? Does anyone think otherwise, and why?

Christian Africa — Baden

Don't forget Muslim Africa--Boko Haram, et al...

I think you missed the context of my reply to Agu there. Africa in general is no picnic violence-wise.