• Benkei
    7.7k
    Can we derive a morality from capitalist ideology or is it an amoral ideology? If we can, what are the ethical rules? And are those rules independent of the capitalist ideology or do they result from this ideology?

    Let's take a first stab with a wikipedia definition of capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

    If we take Marx, we'd probably look best at his "mode of production" definition, which I'll summarise as follows: private ownership of the means of production, extraction of surplus value by the owning class for the purpose of capital accumulation, wage-based labour and market-based exchange of commodities.

    What are the ethical rules we can derive from this idea? I'm only going to mention two for now, to see what other people think is relevant since I'm enquiring here not sharing my rock-solild opinion.
    - things become available for ownership either through trade or production
    - respect private ownership
    - respect transfer of ownership

    A first question, what happens to a transfer of private ownership to the State? Ethical rules say ok but the ideology itself resists this. So it has the possibility of an inherent contradiction if enough people would want to transfer their ownership to the State. Unlikely at the national level. On the other hand, this seems to be the self-evident method for most families. We pool our resources and spend collectively, parents are generally trusted to make decisions on behalf of the family unit.

    Another question: what is meant with private? Keeping aside for a moment the possible utility of corporations, there doesn't seem to be any reason why a State should promote corporations and allow for shareholding and limited liability. In fact, I suffer a higher liability acting as a person (in principle unlimited) than a corporation. It can also damage the first principle to respect private ownership. If I cause damages as a private person, I must repair those damages. If a corporation does it, it will only have to do so to the extent it has capital - once that's exhausted the damaged party has no recourse and his private ownership is not fully respected.

    Another question: what is the effect of the basic immortality of corporations? Instinctually, I'd suspect there's some equilibrium with a large concentration of property and means of production in the hands of corporations, shares in the hands of elites and consumer goods for everyone else.

    Considering the above I'm tempted to argue that if you're in favour of capitalism you'd have to argue against the protections afforded to corporations.

    EDIT: to answer my initial questions. I think ethical rules can be derived from the ideology but also think they are dependent on the capitalist framework. There could be overriding other ethical reasons to reject economic and political frameworks due to their consequences (inequality) or replace it with another framework automatically rendering capitalist outcomes as "unjust" as the new system would have its own ethical rules presumably at odds with capitalism. Before going into that though I'd prefer to stick to just capitalism in this thread for now and see what "real" capitalism should look like based on its theoretical framework without letting ourselves be too much distracted by the reality on the ground.
  • Pseudonym
    1.2k
    - things become available for ownership either through trade or productionBenkei

    I'd say the primary problem is here. How do we account for the means of production in this rule? The means of production cannot become available through production (that would lead to an infinite regress), nor can they become available through trade (which has the problem of the uncaused cause).
    In reality, all property was either appropriated from a state of Nature, or stolen by force of arms, so to be a consistent ethical theory it would have to either allow for both these things (which I think would clash with a lot of ethics), or account for their historical impact in some way. This is where a moral requirement to compensate the dispossessed comes from.
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    Ok, fair enough. How about we rephrase for now and just say "there are things available for ownership" otherwise "respect of ownership" becomes nonsensical. Does that work for you?
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    But that's not the purpose of this thread. For now, let's accept the capitalist ideology as the only possible ideology and see where that gets us and what we can say, based on the ideology, of the reality on the ground and what is correct and what is not.
  • Pseudonym
    1.2k


    Yes, I think so. I'm a little confused about exactly what you're aiming at here, but is it something like asking whether capitalism makes moral statements? If so, then I think you could only see it as such from an ahistorical perspective. It could only ever provide hypothetical imperatives. If we accept we are where we are, in terms of property ownership, then we should...
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    I'm not sure yet where I'm going. An intuition that's too unrefined to share at this stage. Would you agree that your if-then statement is what I'd call "ideologically dependent"? Or is it different?
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    OK, what part? How about this analogy: you can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies based on newtonian mechanics or Einstein's theories. The answers they give are wrong in the paradigms of the other theories but within their own paradigms they are correct. So assuming capitalism is the working paradigm let's "predict" what the facts on the ground should be. So taking the basic rules of capitalism, what should a correct social implementation look like. I know you're a Marxist and any result is wrong based on a Marxist paradigm but I explicitly want to stay away from those judgements.
  • Pseudonym
    1.2k


    Yes, reading your response to Descartes, I think I see where you are going now, something like "for a capitalist, what should capitalism look like morally?". Is that close?

    If so, then I would say that such a hypothetical imperative as I've suggested is ideologically necessary. In order for capitalism to allow inheritance, it must detach acquisition of capital from any sense of moral entitlement. The son of an oil tycoon might be an absolutely reprehensible monster, but he would still rightly 'own' what used to be his father's capital. In that sense, it is a necessary rule of capitalism that you simply have a right to own whatever it has become possible for you to own. The question then, is that what caveats does capitalism itself place on this categorical rule?

    It's obviously not that such acquisition must be legal (capitalism doesn't have any constraints on changing the law, so current legality can't be prescriptive).

    It's also not that such acquisitions must be approved of by democratic society (as you said, state acquisitions would be avoided, regardless of their democratic approval).

    So, I think this is the first question, what might be the rules capitalism implies about the acquisition of property?
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    Yes, reading your response to Descartes, I think I see where you are going now, something like "for a capitalist, what should capitalism look like morally?". Is that close?Pseudonym

    Yes, it is. It stems from the fact that Adam Smith was first and foremost a moral philosopher and it seems "economic theory" has been divorced from moral theory and is living a life on its own with all sorts of consequences that are not capitalism "proper". So by rediscovering the moral basis/assumptions of capitalism I suspect quite a lot of critique can be leveled against current political and economic systems. That would be the purpose of this thread.

    Tangentially (and out of scope for this thread), I even suspect, based on Marx' attempt to continue Smith's and Ricardo's work on a labour theory of value, that Marx' economic ideas are in many respects not conflicting with capitalism. I also suspect capitalism has a lot of holes by remaining silent on a variety of questions or answers them in ways that are impractical to an extent that they are impossible (legal proceedings, general utilities, the costs of holding principles, army, police and fire departments). Meaning that at a minimum its central position in policy might cause fundamental problems for society as a whole if it focuses too much on its economy.

    The son of an oil tycoon might be an absolutely reprehensible monster, but he would still rightly 'own' what used to be his father's capital.Pseudonym

    I would say; provided his father transferred it to him by last will. Filial relations aren't grounds for transfer unless the law prescribes them and that's unnecessary for capitalism to work. What happens to his property if he dies unexpectedly without leaving a will. Who owns what in that case? The highest bidder? But paying who?

    It's also not that such acquisitions must be approved of by democratic society (as you said, state acquisitions would be avoided, regardless of their democratic approval).Pseudonym

    I think we might even stay away from "democratic". In a rights-based liberal approach, rights can be owned so I can transfer my vote to another as well. We could all transfer them to Xin Jiping.

    So, I think this is the first question, what might be the rules capitalism implies about the acquisition of property?Pseudonym

    Yes, I think that's a good start and we'd need to delve into what property means as well.
  • andrewk
    2.1k
    I am fairly anti-capitalist these days but, for the sake of what looks like an interesting discussion, and because I enjoy playing Devil's Advocate, I'll have a go.

    I surmise that the moral roots of the esteem in which private ownership is held in a capitalist worldview go back at least to Locke and his notion that everybody has the moral right to ownership of their self. Some (Nozick, perhaps?) have argued from that that what somebody produces through their own effort is a product of their self, and their moral right to their self extends to what their self has produced, thereby giving them a moral right to the product of their labour. Nozick argued that it follows from this that taxation is partial slavery, as it makes the proportion of time that was spent earning the wealth that was removed by taxation, slave labour for the government.

    OK, but then what about inherited wealth, which is a primary source of the concentration of ownership of the means of production? I think (or recall?) that the Nozicks of the world would argue that the person who originally produced the wealth has a moral right to it, and thereby to bequeath it to whomsoever they wish. If it is removed from the recipient, by tax or other means, that is depredation upon the moral right of the person that first produced it, and thereby immoral. So inherited wealth morally belongs to the inheritor because to do otherwise would infringe the moral right of the producer of that wealth. This starts to look very tenuous after several generations (if not even after only one), but I could see somebody making the argument that the moral thread still holds.
  • Pseudonym
    1.2k
    This starts to look very tenuous after several generations (if not even after only one)andrewk

    Lucy Allais wrote a good piece about the problems of extending deontological ethics into the future and the past. Essentially, the person whose rights are being respected doesn't exist, either way. If we can give rights to non-existent entities, then we can give rights to fictitious entities, theoretical entities...

    Even if we were to assign rights to non-existent entities and somehow curtail the lunacy that could otherwise entail, it still doesn't quite get us round the problem of first acquisition. I feel as though if capitalism wants to put any moral value at all on the ownership of property it has to address the issues of how the property left a state of nature and became owned. Property that is farmed or gardened could become owned by virtue of the labour used to transform it, but that is not without its issues. I suspect the capitalist would also like to retain rights to property not so transformed (hunting estates, for example) and would like some means of resolution over conflicts of ownership from a state of nature (tribal land claims, for example).
  • frank
    15.7k
    If I step and save you every time you're in trouble, I'm robbing you of the education you will need to survive long term. In this way, I freeze you in a child-like state. I make you dependent.

    If I allow you to sink or swim, I am allowing nature to bless you with grace born of adversity. In the end you will be strong, flexible, and free (if you don't drown).

    The good is whatever ministers to life. We learn from Nature what life requires.
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    Lucy Allais wrote a good piece about the problems of extending deontological ethics into the future and the past. Essentially, the person whose rights are being respected doesn't exist, either way. If we can give rights to non-existent entities, then we can give rights to fictitious entities, theoretical entities...Pseudonym

    Interesting. How does she deal with any duty of care for later generations? They don't have rights so we just screw the planet and let them deal with the fallout?
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    I think (or recall?) that the Nozicks of the world would argue that the person who originally produced the wealth has a moral right to it, and thereby to bequeath it to whomsoever they wish.andrewk

    Nozick seems quite a logical place to start.

    I suspect the capitalist would also like to retain rights to property not so transformed (hunting estates, for example) and would like some means of resolution over conflicts of ownership from a state of nature (tribal land claims, for example).Pseudonym

    How does a capitalist acquire land as property? Is this really possible within a capital system? Is all the effort I have to make to originally acquire unowned land the planting of a flag? It requires a register to really work but capitalism doesn't prescribe the necessity for such registers.
  • Pseudonym
    1.2k
    Interesting. How does she deal with any duty of care for later generations? They don't have rights so we just screw the planet and let them deal with the fallout?Benkei

    Actually it was Hans Jonas, not Lucy Allais, apologies, I tried to cite from memory, always a risky. Anyway, he doesn't reconcile it at all, he's pretty scathing of all moral systems for their inability to require anything more than a contingent duty to future generations (contingent upon them existing), but without a duty to cause future generations, the contingent duty ceases to have any imperitive power.

    His solution, such as there is one, is a vaguely ethical naturalistic stance. We're going to produce a future generation whether we are duty bound to or not. He then derives a duty to them. I tend to go further to say our desire to satisfy their well-being is also a given, and it's the conflict with other given desires that's the problem. It then becomes a conflict resolution problem, not an moral imperitive one. But that's a bit off topic.

    Your point about property shows, to my mind, why it is at the heart of the capitalist dilemma. Capitalism (Adam Smith variety) relies on the principle that people will assign a price to a product that ultimately reflects their own self interest in it. It does not properly address the issue of why they must pay a price at all. If the apple is growing wild, why does anyone's self-interested assessment of value even enter into it?

    I think the strongest support for capitalism, by which I mean the manner in which it can be applied without internal inconsistencies, is as a means for proscribing non-essential economic activity.

    - things become available for ownership either through trade or production (that are not essential to survival)
    - respect private ownership (of objects beyond those which are essential to survival)
    - respect transfer of ownership (of objects not essential to survival)

    Essentially its communism for the means of survival and capitalism for the rest.
  • Cuthbert
    1.1k
    Nozick's ok if you can agree a starting position in the past. But since we all derive our means from a sequence of transfers that probably started with someone blipping someone else on the head and grabbing whatever they could then the basis of our entitlement is not at all clear. Hence the debates about slavery compensation.
  • frank
    15.7k
    Does capitalism advocate equal opportunities?René Descartes

    Capitalists rejected social stratification based on divine right. Capitalists need maximal freedom to operate and so advocate freedom for everyone.
  • CuddlyHedgehog
    379
    you'd have to argue against the protections afforded to corporations.Benkei

    Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.
  • Pseudonym
    1.2k
    Capitalists need maximal freedom to operate and so advocate freedom for everyone.frank

    Freedom to what? Freedom is not a thing one can advocate, one had to advocate the freedom to... (something). What is it you think capitalism advocates the freedom to do?
  • CuddlyHedgehog
    379
    freedom to operate as they please, disobey the rules and pay little to no tax.
  • frank
    15.7k
    Freedom to what? Freedom is not a thing one can advocate, one had to advocate the freedom to... (something). What is it you think capitalism advocates the freedom to do?Pseudonym

    Its ideology has its roots in a conflict with aristocracy. We may forget that historically social mobility was limited. The people at the bottom had no education and no opportunities beyond what custom allowed. This structure was backed by the Church. The social upheaval that produced our norms was fueled by money.

    That may be why its hard to see capitalist morality. Everyone in the west is immersed in it. In a sense capitalism created us.
  • CuddlyHedgehog
    379
    The social upheaval that produced our norms was fueled by money.frank

    It was fuelled by complex socio-politico-economic factors. Science, dissemination of knowledge and technology also played an important role. Capitalism did not create us.
  • frank
    15.7k
    Capitalism did not create us.CuddlyHedgehog
    I believe my point is in line with a Marxist view. It's one of the reasons Lenin thought that morality is for "the little people." He, of course, was a BIG person.
  • CuddlyHedgehog
    379
    I believe my point is in line with a Marxist viewfrank

    That doesn't make it any more valid.
  • frank
    15.7k
    I wasn't presenting that as a justification. Just pointing out that it's something most Marxists understand.
  • frank
    15.7k
    Duplicate
  • andrewk
    2.1k
    But since we all derive our means from a sequence of transfers that probably started with someone blipping someone else on the head and grabbing whatever they could then the basis of our entitlement is not at all clear.Cuthbert
    If we replace the 'we all' by 'many of us' - or possibly 'most of us', although that would be more subject to contestation - the point is solid, and highly relevant.

    It gets more ambivalent when we consider rags to riches stories like John Lennon or other creative artists that started with close to nothing and acquired riches by making something that everybody wanted to buy.

    That may be why Nozick's most famous example for his 'taxation is slavery' argument was a very rich and successful black basketballer Wilt Chamberlain. Was Chamberlain raised in poverty? Did Nozick deliberately choose him because that avoided the 'illegitimately acquired initial wealth' argument, as well as hoping his argument would resonate better with with people's emotions about America's slave past because of Chamberlain's ancestral roots?
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