. However, that doesn't mean I have a personal responsibility to adopt a child. You have simply created said responsibility out of thin air.

Then you have an opinion...not morals.
A moral compels one to do, to act in someway in support of that value...some indication to prove you actually do care about the life in question and not just the idea.

If all you have to do is hold a belief about what others ought to do...that does not make you moral it makes you opinionated.

Am I pro-life if I believe you should be held responsible for a fetus?

If I am not...then by the same logic you are not pro-life for demanding the exact same thing of someone else.

Most "pro-lifers" don't really care what it means to be human in my experience. They just want pregnancy to be a punishment for sex. — m-theory

I think that is either the truth or damned close to it.

Suppose it was possible to transplant the fetus such that the woman could remove it from their body and the pro-lifer could be the one to carry it until it is time to be born. — m-theory

What limits transplantation is that the placenta has to grow into the wall of the womb. without the working attachment, a fetus would die within minutes for lack of oxygen, etc. At the beginning of a pregnancy there is time for this to happen because the needs of the dividing egg are very, very slight.

None the less, the fetal transplantation from unwilling mother to ardent pro-lifer offer cuts the mustard.

Invariably pro-lifers object to this, insisting that they should not be responsible for the fetus. — m-theory

And if they don't want to be responsible (there are various ways to take on the responsibility for an unborn child) then they should shut up about it.

They insist that they did not have the sex and that they did not cause the fetus to exist so they should not be held responsible. — m-theory

I suppose pro-lifers have enjoyable sex, I wouldn't know. Maybe they feel that pro-choice people are having really great sex, much better than theirs--which they probably are. If pro-lifers can't enjoy great sex, why should they be punished by having to raise children they didn't want? "But... in as much as it is possible, we are going to make sure YOU, slut, suffer as much as possible."

I did not realize that about the placenta...thanks for teaching me something new.
I under estimated how easy it would be to do a fetus transplant and I retract the statement that it was "probably technologically possible."
Thanks for correcting that error bitter.

The point is you are not pro-life...you actually believe that someone other than yourself ought to be pro-life by force of law. — m-theory

You can repeat this all you like, but that will not make your claim any more coherent or accurate. You have not shown that I am not pro-life. You have merely asserted this. What you need to do is fill in the missing premise as to why being pro-life obligates one to adopt, or for that matter, why liking trucks obligates one to own a truck. These are very bizarre claims, and that they do not appear so to you is really amazing.

The rest of your comments are simply re-phrasings of the same incoherence above, and so not worth the time addressing. It's a shame you are just as tiring to converse with as on the old forum.

Again.
If you are pro-life because you hold an opinion about what someone else should do...then so am I.

You should be responsible for a fetus...that makes me pro-life.

No idea what you're talking about.

Sure you do.

I am saying if you don't have to do anything except hold an opinion about what someone else ought to do...then that does not make you moral...it just means you are opinionated.

Again if you don't have to do anything to actually prove you're pro-life except hold an opinion...then I am pro-life too...because I believe you should personally be responsible for any fetus you think ought to be saved from abortion.

I am just as pro-life as you are because I don't have to do anything practical to prove I am pro-life (by your own logic here that is).

If you insist that I am not pro-life...then by the same logic you should not be pro-life either...because you are asking the logical equivalent of someone else (my argument is the logical equivalent of yours...not me...but you should be responsible for the fetus).

Don't pretend to be dumb just to avoid this point...just answer this question.

Does it make me moral if I hold the opinion that someone else besides me (you) should be responsible for an unwanted fetus?

If it does make moral then my argument is just as moral as your is.

If it does not make me moral then you are no more moral for holding your opinion about what someone else should do with an unwanted fetus.

See what I have done here...is I have taken your actual argument and used it against you.
So either you must concede that my argument is just as moral as yours...or you must concede that you are not actually making a moral argument but expressing an opinion about what someone else ought to do.

Don't pretend to be dumb just to avoid this point...just answer this question. — m-theory

No need to patronize. I'm not pretending to be anything. You shoot these posts from the hip, so they have a stream of consciousness vibe to them that makes understanding and responding to them difficult. I laid out my case for why I am pro-life very carefully in my first post in this thread. I will let that stand and be the judge of my position, and if someone else wants to try and recapitulate what the hell you're trying to say to me, all the better, but I'm done talking to you in this thread.

I was not trying to be patronizing I just felt like you are skirting my point but were trying to save face.
It should be easy to follow what I am saying.

You claim that because you believe someone else beside you should be responsible for a living fetus that makes you pro-life.
I make the exact same claim as you...I claim that someone else (you) should be responsible.

You claim I have no basis to claim that you are morally obligated to any fetus or child.
This creates a logical contradiction.

Either I do have a moral point in my argument (because it is the logical equivalent of yours).
Or I don't (and neither does yours because these arguments are the logical equivalent of each other).

This is not complicated and I still believe you are trying to save face by pretending as though my point is not clear when in fact is is rather straight forward and easy to understand.
If anyone else agrees with you that my discourse is too incoherent then I will concede that I am not communicating clearly...until then I stand by the accusation that you are just avoiding the point and attempting to save face by pretending to be confused.

Just answer the question?

Does it make me moral if I hold the opinion that someone else besides me (you) should be responsible for an unwanted fetus?

Does it make me moral if I hold the opinion that someone else besides me (you) should be responsible for an unwanted fetus? — m-theory

First of all, the pregnant woman has a responsibility to raise the child. If she reneges, then it is society's responsibility (and specifically the state's, if private means are not available) to care for the child, which is a collective responsibility, not a personal one. Pet owners likewise have a responsibility to care for their pets. If they renege on this, then society must care for these animals, but that doesn't entail that I, personally, am obligated go out and adopt a pet. Whence the obligation? You still have not said. Simply put, I do no wrong in not adopting, which is to say, I have the right not to adopt; and this, in turn, is because the concept of right is negative, which could not have been plainer from my first post. You also falsely assume that everyone who is pro-life is in a position to adopt or would be a good parent. They need not be.

You claim that because you believe someone else beside you should be responsible for a living fetus that makes you pro-life. — m-theory

That's not what makes me pro-life. You never read a word of my first post. Away with you.

You did not answer my question.

Does it make me moral to insist that someone else should be responsible for an unwanted fetus?
This is pretty much a yes or no question and you simply ignored it.

Again you are simply expressing an opinion here..."the pregnant woman is responsible" is what you claim.
Well...I claim no she isn't you are because you believe that the fetus has rights...she might not share that belief so she is not responsible for that belief.

Again you are simply expressing an opinion here — m-theory

My judgment is based on reasoning and I am not in doubt about it, so it is not a mere opinion. Even if it were, saying "you're just expressing an opinion" is utterly asinine. What is it you think you're doing, sweetheart?

I did answer your question. I am personally morally obligated not to harm another human being, while the state is obligated to care for unwanted children. This entails some other individual or individuals caring for said children, but it does not obligate me to do so. Those who do care them have voluntarily chosen to work in the institutions that provide such care. I am not forcing anyone to do anything.

My judgment is based on reasoning and I am not in doubt about it, so it is not a mere opinion. Even if it were, saying "you're just expressing an opinion" is an utterly asinine remark. What is it you think you're doing, sweetheart?

I pointed out that my argument is the logical equivalent of yours you still have not addressed that point.
I have no more reason to doubt my argument than you have to doubt yours because they are logically equivalent.

Again you did not answer my question.

Does it make me moral to claim that someone beside myself must be responsible for an unwanted fetus?
Either it does or does not make me moral.
You keep avoiding this question.

It is a simple yes or no.

If the answer is yes...then my point is just as moral as yours and your claim that you have no moral responsibility for unwanted fetuses is incorrect.

If the answer is no then you are not moral either for making the exact same claim.

You can ignore these points if you want...that does not mean I will simply let them go by the wayside.

your claim that you have no moral responsibility for unwanted fetuses is incorrect — m-theory

I don't personally. The state does. This is the distinction I have made three times now, which means your question is not, and hasn't ever been, answerable yes or no. And as I have also said several times now, this means your question, along with most everything else emanating from your keyboard, is inarticulate blather. Now, lest I be sucked further into the black hole that is your method of conversing, I'm done here. Don't expect another reply. I leave other posters as witness to the integrity of my position.

No.
I make the same argument as you do...and I claim that you do have a responsibility because you are the one the believes the fetus has rights.

Any integrity you have I also have because my argument is the logical equivalent of yours.

You also failed to answer the question again.

Does it make me moral to claim that someone beside myself must be responsible for an unwanted fetus?
That is all you are doing...claiming that someone else ought to be responsible for an unwanted fetus.

You want to claim that is moral...well then I am just as moral in my point as you are in yours.

I will be happy to explain to you why I believe your opinion is mistaken as soon as you admit that that is all you have...an opinion.
Until you admit this I will continue to point out that my argument is the exact same as yours and therefor just as moral as yours.

To summarize the debate so far.
I have claimed that having an opinion about what someone else ought to do is not, in any practical way, moral.
Thus most pro-lifers are not making moral claims they are expressing opinions about the morals others ought to have and not the morals that they ought to have.
Only pro-lifers that have actually adopted children have acted morally and thus can claim to have a moral position.

I have also pointed out that if having an opinion about the morals others ought to have is more than just an opinion and is in fact moral.
Then I am just as moral to claim that pro-lifers ought to adopt children.

Thorongil (a pro-lifer) insist that his claims are moral but mine are not...I pointed out that this is a logical contradiction because our claims are logically equivalent.

Rather than engage that point Thorongil tried to either change the subject or simply insult me implying that I was "incoherent" and/or that all I do is type "inarticulate blather."

I will not derail my point that Thorongil is not logically consistent in his views until Thorongil admits that our claims are equally valid or until Thorongil admits that he has done nothing moral what-so-ever from simply holding an opinion about how others ought to behave.

If Thorongil does this I will proceed to explain why we cannot enforce policy to prevent the termination of unwanted pregnancy.