I' m reluctant to leave it there, stuck in conflicting loyalties.

... but I also think special care should be made to avoid suggestions that the Jews are monsters or that the Palestinians are dogs, which are sometimes the unspoken thoughts of the advocates for either side. — Hanover

Circumstances can make us all monsters and dogs, and I have the luxury of sitting in my judgemental armchair at a safe distance, and the sad truth is I care more about the overspill into my local politics than any of the people over there. The conflict is older than me, and I am old.

Nevertheless, I have a principle that I hope is agreeable to most, that those with power over others are responsible for them. I don't think there is a question on which side the balance of power lies. And I don't think the film is mere propaganda; one can argue and question individual incidents, but there is too much, too well supported from Israelis as well as Palestinians, testimony from the Australian journalists, credible video evidence. This is not peace-keeping, this is not a measured response to threat, this is a terror campaign intended to totally subjugate demoralise and eventually evict or eliminate opposition. There is little sign of a will to reach an accommodation.

And that comes from a dreadful history - it is understandable. It is, in a sense, a continuation of WW2, itself the culmination of 2000 years of oppression. Psychologically, we are afraid to stand alone, and so we identify with the tribe, and the tribe demands loyalty unto death, that is the security it offers.

So between the dogs and the monsters, my loyalty is always with the dogs, and when the dogs become monsters and the monsters become dogs, I change sides. I am disloyal, I become a traitor.

I know plenty of people who are appalled by the actions of Israel. I don't know any anti-Semitic people. I don't think that's as much of a thing as it used to be.

I don't know any anti-Semitic people. I don't think that's as much of a thing as it used to be. — frank

It is still a thing.

They should export him to Minnesota. I think there's a militia that wants him.

We’re saying, ‘You’ve got three years, then go home. Go to your natural homelands…We give you time to go.’ Then we’ll swing into action.

I think that’s the only way forward, if we want to save our cultures and our nations. Because these people are having children like rabbits. — a vile racist

'Natural homelands' 'we want to save our cultures', ' these people are having children like rabbits'. Listen out for these sentiments and epithets - this is how 'they' speak. Don't do likewise, learn to spot them in the threads and on the news. My homeland is the whole earth and none of it; my culture is their culture and I reject it; every child is someone's baby rabbit.

It's amazing how many crazy Jew-hating comments are on here. Hitler supported Israel? That's absolutely false. Israel is a racist state? False. Israel gives its Arab-Muslim citizens free education, free medical care and greater rights than they would have if living in any Islamic nation, or even any European nation. Yet, the world obsesses over Israel 24/7. There are Muslim people in other locations, including Iran, who are fighting for state hood, and no one even knows who they are. In fact, there are presently 350 active groups of people trying for independent statehood, and yet, other than the so-called Palestinian Arabs, how many such groups can people name? Not to mention that when Egypt bombs Gaza, no one says a word. When Lebanon mistreats Palestinians, no one says a word. When the King of Jordan violated international law and claimed the land for Jordan, through military action, no one said a word. Not even the so-called Palestinian Arabs said anything.

If one makes a list of countries with human rights records, from the best to the worst, Israel would be near the top. Yet, Israel gets more than half of the UN sanctions? And that's not anti-Semitism? So, Iran, Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc., combined have fewer sanctions than Israel? Israel is a nation where an Arab headed the country during an interim period. It's a nation where Arab Muslim judges sentence Jewish Israelis to prison. It is a country where it's fairly well integrated among various "races," and religious groups, and extends greater rights for women, gays, atheists, and other minorities than any country in the Middle East, while its neighbors routinely commit crimes against humanity, deny freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and cleanse all non-Muslims from their states.

The denial of the basic facts regarding Israel, as well as the world's fixation on Israel and the use of double standards against Israel can only be explained by anti-Semitism. While it is certainly wrong to call someone an anti-Semite for voicing a just criticism of Israel, it is equally wrong to deny the anti-Semitism that underlies the vast majority of the so-called discussion regarding Israel.

Serious question: why is critisizing the actions of Israel anti-semitic? Is this the case that only being Jewish or an Israeli, you can be critical of the actions of the Israeli government?

Besides, not all people are in favour of one side and against the other (as typically Americans think everything has to be). You can be critical of both sides. You don't have to be a supporter of the Palestinians and a hater of Israel or a worshipper of the Judeo-Christian heritage and hater of the arabs (or muslims).

If one makes a list of countries with human rights records, from the best to the worst, Israel would be near the top. — LD Saunders

At war at least it hasn't been so. When Israel invaded Lebanon in the early 1980's you could see Lebanese coming to the roads and clapping their hands in support of the action. Why? Well, of course they didn't like the PLO running things. Yet that changed quite quickly when the local populace came to interaction with the IDF.

Just to give an example observed by the UN peacekeepers in Lebanon: when an Israeli armoured column advancing on a road drove through an area of thick vegetation, they would simply open fire with their machine guns to pin down any possible ambushes lurking in the bushes. When a small girl playing in her family orchard got shot and killed this way, the IDF would simply inform that they have killed a terrorist. Now, to fire wildly and blindly at a spot where there might be an ambush has it's points, but also shows that total lack of concern of the civilian population.

SSU: There you go completely trying to twist my words. I specifically stated that not every criticism against Israel is anti-Semitic. However, a great deal of criticism against Israel is anti-Semitic, and not saying so, is equally repugnant.

Your claims against Israel are pure bullshit. How about you tell us when you have ever condemned the barbarity and crimes against humanity by both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority? The Palestinian Authority as its official government policy demands the mass murder of Jews. It officially calls those who stab to death little Jewish children in their own homes "heroes and legends" and encourages others to also stab Jewish children to death. How about when the Palestinian Authority has an official bounty on the heads of Jews, and it pays the family of those who murder Jews, life-long pensions, which can be as much as $15,000 per month? Ever protest that criminal action? Even the Nazis did not offer bounties for the mass murder of Jews.

How about when Hamas cites in its official charter that Israel should be destroyed, that Jews are responsible for all the wars, I assume even those wars between Japan and China, and it also endorses the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as being real. Ever protest that?

Did you protest the more than 30 terrorist tunnels that were dug into Israel, and were used to kill Jewish children, which started the last war in Gaza? Did you protest against the UN for allowing one of the tunnels to originate from a UN building, which means UN officials had to have known about the tunnel?

Have you protested the actual occupation of Cyprus by Turkey? How about Egypt's abuse of Christians? How about China's abuse of its Muslim population, which it oppresses in a way Israel never would?

Those are just some of the double standards I'm speaking of. And how come a crowd in Sweden burned down a synagogue and screamed that Jews should be shot after Trump agreed to move the US embassy in Israel? How come they did not attack Americans? It's because today's Jew-haters lie about Israel and do so in order to justify the abuse of Jews throughout the globe. That's why we see such vulgar behavior in Sweden, France, Germany, and a rise in anti-Semitism. The fact is that if Jews weren't involved, the world would have recognized that Jordan and Egypt were the main culprits regarding the Palestinians and they both have an affirmative duty to take their own citizens back after losing a war of aggression against Israel. It's only because Jews are involved that the world believes the Jews in Israel have some duty to take these millions of people in as full citizens. No country would do that. Name any nation that would take in millions of people who previously declared war on their nation, and who demand their nation's destruction, and who would enter in such numbers that the citizens would no longer be a majority in their own country? Name one? Japan? No. Germany? No. The USA, Canada, Australia? No. No one would even think any other nation should have to do such a thing. It's only when it comes to tiny little Israel that the world engages in such double standards.

Just on behalf of all the Palestinian victims of the Israeli state:

The way the Palestinians have been treated by Israel for the last 50 years is one of the most ironic situations in all of human history. It's been incredibly shameful. What do I think of Jews? They're people. What more is there to say?

Nevertheless, I have a principle that I hope is agreeable to most, that those with power over others are responsible for them. I don't think there is a question on which side the balance of power lies. And I don't think the film is mere propaganda; one can argue and question individual incidents, but there is too much, too well supported from Israelis as well as Palestinians, testimony from the Australian journalists, credible video evidence. This is not peace-keeping, this is not a measured response to threat, this is a terror campaign intended to totally subjugate demoralise and eventually evict or eliminate opposition. There is little sign of a will to reach an accommodation. — unenlightened

I disagree with this assessment. The Israeli response is motivated by the real threat posed by the Palestinians to their existence and peaceful functioning. They are not terrorists who awake each morning asking themselves how they can disrupt a peaceful people due to religious and ideological differences. Should the Palestinians stop any aggressive act toward Israel, there will be no aggression by Israel.

This is a dispute over land. That's what this is. If we accept Israel's right to the land it occupies, it stands morally right. If we don't, it doesn't, although I would not allow that the terroristic acts by the Palestinians are acceptable in any circumstance. They lob bombs into Israel for the sole purpose of disruption and civilian casualty, without regard for any military target.

The Palestinians have no way to win a military war against the Israelis, so the war has turned to securing public condemnation against Israel in order to gain an advantage diplomatically. They have largely been successful in that approach except in the U.S. So, is the video you presented propaganda, no more or less than if Israel were to start producing videos showing the atrocities exacted by the Palestinians. What's the purpose of such videos if not to garner support for a political position?

If we accept Israel's right to the land it occupies, it stands morally right. — Hanover

And I disagree with this. One can accept Israel's right to the land, and condemn its actions against people who helplessly and fruitlessly resist with stones against automatic weapons and tanks. One can in these circumstances well afford to respect the rights of one's enemies, and so hope to reduce the enmity.

They don't just throw rocks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

The rock throwing is symbolic (David against Goliath), but it can be significantly harmful as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_stone-throwing

[Delete] @Baden

Why were the Zionists privileged enough to merit this. — René Descartes

American support for the state of Israel was mostly Cold War strategy. Now we're stuck with the fallout.

Wiki's a real battleground on this.

You have enough evidence to make a comprehensive case for either side. The structure of the articles also encourages partisanship - the data on deaths, injuries etc aren't compared symmetrically within articles: you'll find Israel focussed and Palestine focussed articles but few attempts to synthesise them. So there are few comparative accounts of damages incurred by both sides. The best overview I've found is this one, but it omits estimation of indirect and economic effects of the war.

There's also a sustained ideological battleground on appropriate methodology for generating any of the statistics. So much effort is placed on methodology contestation there're good academic arguments for any partisan take, really. Also excellent arguments against any take. Informed discourse about it might as well be a discrete space, in which every person is infinitely far from reconciliation with any other viewpoint except one equivalent to their own - which is accepted as obvious without reflection.

The interpretation of Israel-Palestine might well be the best model of polarised discourse, so much so that it would be controversial to put it as an example of polarisation in the dictionary. :P

[Delete] @Baden

Yes the horrible results of stone throwing were shown on the propaganda, and it needs dealing with, but by police and civil courts, because kids throwing stones is not an act of war, or even of terrorism. But children are not responsible for rocket attacks. It's still an insufficient excuse for the obviously disproportionate responses.

Yeah, it's nothing to do with a Jewish homeland, it's to do with the America and Britain wanting to maintain post colonialist influence over the Middle East. — René Descartes

I think Zionism was about keeping Jews from being assimilated. That was the homeland part.

What makes her evil? What has she done to deserve what she received? Is it worse than knocking down the homes of Palestines. Bombing the Gaza Strip as Israel does. Or the multiple assassination commited by Mossad on Foreigners. She just kicked a soldier. Poor him. That must have been a life threatening situation. I wonder if he will go to jail if he ever kills a Palestinian. — René Descartes

I didn't call her evil. I said children are not all innocent.

I'm just wondering why the Romani Gypsies never got their own land after the holocaust. Why were the Zionists privileged enough to merit this. — René Descartes

You can read the history of the State of Israel for the specifics on this, but as I've noted before, the right to land is always morally ambiguous. Why did the British get Australia and not the Roma? There are thousands of reasons.

I don't think we are talking about Australia here. If you want to talk about Australia start your own thread. — René Descartes

These quips make your post not worth responding to. As noted very clearly, I wasn't suggesting anything in particular about the Australians, but only what constituted legitimate land possession by any nation.

And neither should the Israel bombardments of the West Bank or the illegal settlements be acceptable in any circumstance. — René Descartes

This has already been responded to as it relates to the dispute over whether the settlements are illegal.

Are you using the "Fake News" argument? — René Descartes

I'm suggesting that the reports are a form of advocacy for one side or the other. I don't think that an inability to present a neutral side amounts to it being fake, but more so being so ideological that lack of bias is impossible.

The truth is that the Israelis are the aggressors. They came in illegally before 1948 and they suddenly ended up with the majority of previously Palestinian owned land. — René Descartes

That's not the truth.

Now I condemn the violence from both sides, but tell me where is the justice in this. How does Israel have a moral high ground? — René Descartes

It was in self-defense.

Personally I don't think anyone has a right to land.

Land ownership is just a stance not a metaphysical reality. I think we can only survive through cooperation and not making excessive claims on land. We can enforce landownership but through armies, police and war not justification.

I don't think that claiming rights over a bit of land means you can overpopulate it and excessively exploit it's resources.

I was disturbed in the late 90's when watching an Open university documentary on Demography and someone on the Gaza strip said he had 8 children because he was trying to outnumber the Jews but he was apparently living in a one bedroom apartment. Well that is child abuse in my opinion. Creating children into a conflict zone is dubious but doing it as a conflict tactic is just futile and harmful.

I think having children does just add to the state of exploitation and conflict which is life. Responsible reproducing would surely eliminate various problems.

Anti Israel sentiment does smell of antisemitism because it is disproportionate considering millions of people have died in the Republic of Congo wars and received little attention or academic studies or appearances in The Lancet. People are clearly very selective about which cause to get behind.

[Delete] @Baden

It seems unnecessary to watch the video to respond to the questions you raise. It is certainly possible that there are some Jewish people are who racists, and if by institutional racism you mean that it is part of Israel's policy to oppress Palestinians, that's certainly possible as well.

Someone steals your house or your farm, how would you feel about that? — René Descartes

I rent my house

What the hell are you talking about? — René Descartes

Have you ever heard of an animal other than human owning land?

Honestly, what would have solved the problem would have been not to create Israel in the first place. — René Descartes

Have you bothered even reading one history book? What a fatuous comment

No one is denying what happened in the Congo — René Descartes

They are not discussing is the point I am making.

Of course Anti Israel sentiment and Antisemitism are going to be closely linked. I don't think I can debate with you if you keep up this low level of discourse.

[Delete] @Baden

I think what happens is that I see someone like Hanover and think: "He knows all the things I know and he's just waving it away like it's irrelevant." And that's just monstrous. It really would be if that's what he's doing.

But maybe he's actually not doing that. Maybe he's focusing on something else. Who knows?

But it would probably help if someone like Netanyahu would acknowledge the mistakes the state of Israel has made. Or maybe he has done that and I missed it.

I actually like this post of yours. A huge part of working through these political debates for me as well is in figuring out how reasonable people can hold such seemingly unreasonable views.

What if you owned a house and it was stolen from you? — René Descartes

We need to differentiate between land and housing. I think everyone deserves a roof over their head.

Life involves exploitation of each other and resources we benefit from cheap produce made from minerals mined by slaves in places such as the Congo that I mentioned earlier and labour in undemocratic China and poverty hot spots like India. I can't justify my lifestyle because societies are based around exploitation. I am just thankful not to be homeless.

If I lost my housing I would hope someone else could find mey a property to live in.

We are not discussing this type of scenario anyhow we are talking about strong claims about ethnic or national groups owning a whole territory. Well ...Palestine has been owned that way by different groups and for the longest period it was owned by the Ottoman Empire and never self determining.

Anyway if I became homeless I would not have 8 children because that would be cruel and irresponsible. I have no desire to live in the Middle East which has no redeeming features for my and breed hordes if offspring to become fresh victims for an ideological dispute.

I think the bible may have got it right when it talks about stewardship.

We should be looking after the land not exploiting it and fighting over it.

The folly is not to be discussing the whole contentious issue of the validity of nationhood, countries, borders and over population, parental responsibility etc.

but instead they're discussing tit for tat grievances, quasi religious or religious ethnic identities and land statuses and raking over historical minutiae.

I don't understand how a species that flew to the moon could be so dysfunctional.

Are they? I think most people opposed to Israel are not anti-Semites. — René Descartes

How would you know that? To me it is the only explanation for the disproportionate and biased coverage of the conflict.

People don't think the Jews should have a state and Israel should never had existed meanwhile there are hundreds of millions of Arabs with large countries in the middle East and a small area of land for the Jews. Why shouldn't the Jews have a nation and why should they be forced to live in exile? They have historical roots in the region. The surrounding Arab countries mistreat their Palestinians force them to keep refugee status and live in camps even though a lot of them were born in these countries.

Israel clearly faces an existential threat to its survival and the Jews as a whole already faced that threat so they have my support for the foreseeable future."Pro" Palestinians are also clearly worsening the conditions for the Palestinians (B.D.S. and so on).