I've decided to write an essay on this issue. Enjoy.

Gender Specific Relationship Retardation
By: Hanover von Hanoverstein of Hanoverville (aka "Tater")

A vignette: John dates Sally. John likes Sally. Sally likes John. John calls Sally regularly, but not every day. Sally enjoys John's company. John tells Sally he likes her, but he doesn't say it all the time. John makes thoughtful gestures toward Sally, but not always. John likes to get physically close to Sally, but Sally doesn't always want to. Sally wants to talk deeply to John, but John doesn't always want to.

John and Sally go on a date on Saturday. John and Sally start to get physical, but Sally slows things down. John calls Sally on Monday (not Sunday) and asks to see her on Wednesday. Sally says she's not sure about Wednesday. John suggests Thursday. Sally says she still isn't sure. John says okay, and the conversation ends. When they do speak about their problems, John clearly explains why there are no problems, only Sally finds him unpersuasive and evasive.

Emotionally intuitive Sally realizes that John isn't prioritizing her, isn't considering her feelings, is most interesting in being physical, isn't trying to get to know her, and will barely talk to her. Emotionally intuitive Sally even realizes that emotionally retarded John is emotionally retarded so she tries to give him some leeway, but he's so retarded she's starting to think there's no hope. In fact, she's doubly frustrated by his attempt to persuade her that her intuitions are wrong, or worse yet, to dodge the emotional issues altogether.

Rational John determines that Sally isn't interested in him. His data points are: (1) she won't physically get close, (2) she tells him she doesn't want to go out with him on Wednesday or Thursday, and (3) she constantly is calling him down on the carpet with her talks. To the extent he's holding up his end of the bargain, he has the following data points: (1) he does call her often, (2) he expresses his admiration for her from time to time, (3) he does make the appropriate gestures sometimes, and (4) he does talk to her, just not insistently. Rational John realizes that rationally retarded Sally is rationally retarded so he tries to give her some leeway, but she's so rationally retarded, he's starting to think there's no hope. In fact, he's doubly frustrated by her refusal to accept his data points as evidence of the rightfulness of his position when they speak.

And the retardation comes to full blossom. Sally's outreach to bring John closer is interpreted as rejection and pushing away. John's outreach to bring Sally closer is interpreted as rejection and pushing away. John sees Sally as a confusing, emotional creature unable to grasp his arguments, and he likely describes her as crazy. Sally sees John as uncaring and stubborn and likely describes him as childish and not fully human.

John likes Sally. Sally likes John. Too bad they couldn't work that out.

The solution? Sally just needs to listen to the voice of reason. God damn, John's doing everything he can, but nothing is ever good enough. He doesn't need that bullshit. Can't Sally just hold his hand and tell him he's a great guy and stop making this so complicated?

Autobiographical, sure, but it's currently playing in theaters across the country.

So speaketh the cookie.

The last word:

One more for you in all its powerful absurdity. "Love is like a cloud that holds a lot of rain." It's gotta be true. The big haired man said so.

Sally's outreach to bring John closer is interpreted as rejection and pushing away. John's outreach to bring Sally closer is interpreted as rejection and pushing away. John sees Sally as a confusing, emotional creature unable to grasp his arguments, and he likely describes her as crazy. Sally sees John as uncaring and stubborn and likely describes him as childish and not fully human. — Hanover

Let's work through the predominant points here in your research.

1. The misinterpretation
1(a). He thinks I am confusing, emotional and unable to grasp what he is actually on about to a point that he thinks I am crazy
1(b). I see him as uncaring and stubborn and completely childish and not fully human.

:up:

2. The misdirection
2(a). He thinks I am not interested in him because I won't get physically close to him.
2(b). I think because he does not express his admiration for me or make the appropriate gestures that would make me believe he is interested.

:up:

3. The hopelessness
3(a). He thinks I am rationally retarded
3(b). I think he is emotionally retarded

:down: No. He is just emotionally retarded. End of story there.

4. The retardation

We didn't work out because of a mixture of stupid shit that could have been avoided if he wasn't emotionally retarded.

Your essay is pretty good, but certainly needs to be improved.

Your essay is pretty good, but certainly needs to be improved. — TimeLine

My emotional retardation takes this as rejection, you learner of nothing. I'd be sad, but I forgot what we were talking about.

Here's your quandary: all guys are emotionally retarded. You just have to take one in and give him a good home and pet his head. It's just mean as shit to leave them in the rain wondering what to do.

My emotional retardation takes this as rejection, you learner of nothing. I'd be sad, but I forgot what we were talking about. Here's your quandary: all guys are emotionally retarded. You just have to take one in and give him a good home and pet his head. It's just mean as shit to leave them in the rain wondering what to do. — Hanover

Listen here you defender of man, why would I cuddle up to one who has given me no indication that he wants me to crawl all over him like a kitten? It is simply an exchange of information that explains what you are genuinely feeling. Here is some prepared earlier:

I really like you.
I enjoy your company.
I want to get to know you better.
I really admire you.
You are so fucking awesome.

It is an indication of how you feel so she can know where she stands. You don't stalk someone and say nothing, you don't send affectionate messages to her pretending to be someone else, or love songs and short stories and completely freak her out thinking is this guy a psychopath or does he like me?, and then, when she gets scared and backs away trying to get rid of him because of her confusion, he thinks she is crazy.

Fucking hell, man.

And why, for heavens sake, is it that every time I promise to commit myself to study over the weekend, the weather is glorious? Do you have an answer to that, Mr. 'I know everything'?

Oh no, did someone strike a nerve?

Listen here you defender of man, why would I cuddle up to one who has given me no indication that he wants me to crawl all over him like a kitten? — TimeLine

A guy doesn't tell you that because he suspects you already know it. That's what all guys want.

I really like you.
I enjoy your company.
I want to get to know you better.
I really admire you.
You are so fucking awesome. — TimeLine

Couldn't have said it better myself (awww).

To be fair, you're not respecting vulnerability limitations. Telling people you care about them ought to be easy, but it's not, male or female. Do you really say that if you're not sure where the guy stands or do you wait (and wait and wait) for him to say it first? Methinks you're just as much a scaredy cat as he is, little miss pretends to be balls to the wall, caution to the wind, express my love like no other.

You don't stalk someone and say nothing, you don't send affectionate messages to her pretending to be someone else, or love songs and short stories and completely freak her out thinking is this guy a psychopath or does he like me?, — TimeLine

That's precisely what I would do if playa didn't have no game, but playa got mad game see. What went down see is that he liked you, but didn't know what to say, so his dumber ass friend fed him some line thinking he was helpin a brother out, but you realized it was concocted bullshit, and instead of thinking "aww, retard likes me, bless his awkward heart," you went out and got a restraining order on the bitch. I am soo skreet, right?

this guy a psychopath or does he like me?, — TimeLine

B. Choice B. He likes you. He's not a sociopath. He's a retard. Give the retard some love. Damn girl.

And why, for heavens sake, is it that every time I promise to commit myself to study over the weekend, the weather is glorious? Do you have an answer to that, Mr. 'I know everything'? — TimeLine

Prolly God hates you.

Choice B. He likes you. He's not a sociopath. He's a retard. Give the retard some love. Damn girl. — Hanover

I figured that out eventually and tried to respond in a way I thought he may understand considering his ridiculously strange behaviour, but he didn't understand and then I looked stupid. Anyhoot.

A guy doesn't tell you that because he suspects you already know it. That's what all guys want. — Hanover

Since when were women mind readers? This verifies the complexities wrought by many men who, I think, expect to be loved without doing or saying anything. She is not your mother. There are conditions. To add to that, she doesn't want to be worshipped neither does she want to run around after man, just a friend to hang out with and share in life and experiences as equals, as well as figure out new and evolving sexual positions. I mean, have you heard of the Tootsie Roll? I just made that up, see, and I could have practiced that shit on him if he were normal.

What I really don't like is this deflection of responsibility justified as some innocence or vulnerability. It is accountability that differentiates between a boy and a man. I know articulating feelings can indeed make a person feel vulnerable, but a bystander that says and does nothing is just as guilty despite being able to tell himself that he is free from any responsibility. He hid in the shadows and while I did bless his awkward and almost deranged little heart for a while and why I tried to communicate at his level because I wanted to give him a shot, what did he expect to get out of doing that other than being able to tell himself that he was free of any responsibility and walk away should things go awry?

I don't know, you end up missing out on life, on what could be real and beautiful because when you are strong enough to go and take what you want, you really are happier as a person.

To be fair, you're not respecting vulnerability limitations. Telling people you care about them ought to be easy, but it's not, male or female. Do you really say that if you're not sure where the guy stands or do you wait (and wait and wait) for him to say it first? Methinks you're just as much a scaredy cat as he is, little miss pretends to be balls to the wall, caution to the wind, express my love like no other. — Hanover

Your partner is a reflection of the person that you are. I like hiking and sports, writing essays, listening to local bands, travelling independently, having a small number of friends and leading a small life. I dress normally. I love my job working with kids and have no further ambitions (I am very content in my work). I enjoy being creative and visiting art galleries. I am deeply passionate about human rights. He doesn't like girls like me - which I think is the real reason for his behaviour - he likes popular girls that have no mind enough for him to control, that dress like teenage clowns and pretend to care about things, things that will make them look good and ultimately him by extension rather than genuinely, that the people he associates with will approve of her. I am not someone they would approve and therefore I am not even worth it for him. We are different people like that because I would give up so much for someone I cared for and that was the only reason why things never manifested, not because he was innocent or vulnerable or I was scared.

Prolly God hates you. — Hanover

:halo:

By: Hanover von Hanoverstein of Hanoverville (aka "Tater") — Hanover

If you are "Tater" does that make your kids "Tots"?

Yesterday at a celebration of life of a friend, I got caught by a 6 yr old who wanted to tell Aunt Tiffy a "Knock Knock" joke about the Orange. It was ssssssssso painful as she NEVER got to the banana part.

Unnecessary information I know but I don't want to go to church. :halo:

Listen here you defender of man, why would I cuddle up to one who has given me no indication that he wants me to crawl all over him like a kitten? — TimeLine

Timeline, male only kitten crawls? :eyes:

I figured that out eventually and tried to respond in a way I thought he may understand considering his ridiculously strange behaviour, but he didn't understand and then I looked stupid. Anyhoot. — TimeLine

Hanoverian therapy methods are transcendent in nature, requiring objectifying one's own conduct for introspection. We do this by constantly asking ourselves what we've done and we allow our homunculus to assess it, splitting ourselves into two. I like that you've done this here (moving to a 3(a) on the Hanover Scale - pay for the seminar and find out if you're curious), declaring yourself looking stupid. My long winded absurd diversion into a non-existent therapy program only means to say that you looked stupid only to yourself. He thought you looked pretty and still wanted pretty girl to hold his hand. I know everything about men, remember?

But let's really step back and transcend this whole discussion and see what's really going on here. Compare yourself to LoneWolf and look at the differences in reactions to her. She is devastated (and I get I'm having an awkward convo about someone in the room listening, but Hanover gotta be Hanover), depressed, feeling lost, filled with self-blame, and pining over a man who was once there. She is heartbroken. Silly man on the keyboard sends her videos of Elvis and big hair man singing sappy love songs. Why? I'm cheering her up cuz she's sad.

Now splain yourself. There's no pining, hints of sadness, crying. No one is saying "pauvre pauvre TimeLine" because (1) you're not expressing pain, and (2) we don't speak French here. But the point here is that you seem to be seeking not comfort from your non-existent sadness, but instead some sort of understanding of what you're doing wrong in this dance, asking why do you keep stepping on folks' toes. Is that right, or was there really a time of genuine pining and heartbreak that you've just not shared (you can tell us anything, don't be a shy bird). I mean it sounds like you guys stopped seeing each other and you were like "what the fuck was that all about'?

Since when were women mind readers? — TimeLine

Since forever. I labor under no illusions that my insights exceed yours. Your femaleness puts you light years ahead of me in comprehending emotions and motivations. Truth.

But anyhoot (note the Hanoverian method of language adoption and the feelings of comfort it elicits), I didn't read the man child's mind. I just stated the universal truth that all men want women to crawl on their laps like kitty cats (mind out of the gutter perv - talking meowing regular old cats here).

— TimeLine

She is not your mother. There are conditions. To add to that, she doesn't want to be worshipped neither does she want to run around after man, just a friend to hang out with and share in life and experiences as equals, as well as figure out new and evolving sexual positions. I mean, have you heard of the Tootsie Roll? I just made that up, see, and I could have practiced that shit on him if he were normal. — TimeLine

Your requirements are reasonable, but you don't need to try to universalize them to prove their legitimacy. That is, plenty of women have different requirements than you (thank the good Lord (playful jab)), but different strokes for different folks (allusion to the stroking inherent in the Tootsie Roll).

Your partner is a reflection of the person that you are. — TimeLine

Can be. Plenty of happy couples are very different. I'm not saying you're not right to look for certain similar interests, but oftentimes happiness is found in sharing a generalized demeanor, communicating on the same wave length and things like that. Whether you share in various hobbies matter less.

He doesn't like girls like me - which I think is the real reason for his behaviour - he likes popular girls that have no mind enough for him to control, that dress like teenage clowns and pretend to care about things, things that will make them look good and ultimately him by extension rather than genuinely, that the people he associates with will approve of her. I am not someone they would approve and therefore I am not even worth it for him. — TimeLine

We call this a Hanoverian shift (at least we do starting now), where you provide me additional deets of your situation that entirely changes the direction of the convo, calling into question your thoughts. Previously I was to learn that you worked diligently to establish a relationship with a buffoon, but the impediment of his buffoonery limited its development. Had our hapless oaf been capable of Hanoverian Transcendence (described supra), the two of you would now be tightly bound in the Tootsie Roll (or perhaps even the Cinnamon Bun). Now I am to learn that the failure of the relationship had little really to do with a failure to communicate and his general idiocy, but just old fashioned incompatibility. He wanted a vacuous gum popping Valley girl, not a simple goat milking village girl (playful jab - I can say anything I want if I say "playful jab" - called a "Hanoverian Jab - take the seminar). Anyway, I'm having trouble deciphering if (1) you never really liked the guy, but you were just pushing yourself because you felt like you might be being too particular, so you felt the need to give any relationship a whirl or (2) you did like the guy, but it didn't work out, so you're just now offering a sour grapes argument that it'd never work out anyway. I've already eliminated (3), which is that you are heartbroken. Your lack of respect for this guy appears genuine, meaning you're not just name calling someone who dumped you. And it's not clear that he dumped you or that you dumped him, but you haven't told us about that yet. It seems more like a mutual hostile walk off.

It seems more like a mutual hostile walk off. — Hanover

Which means there is still a chance for love to blossom. :heart: :heart: :heart:

That would require Hanoverian recklessness, a well documented relationship flaw where the less chance of success there is, the greater the challenge, and therefore a Herculean effort. It is the dog that chases the car and finally catches it and has no idea what to do with it or why he chases cars in the first place.

It is the dog that chases the car and finally catches it and has no idea what to do with it or why he chases cars in the first place. — Hanover

Why did you have to get so personal with it? :gasp:
Btw it was a Corvette and what can I say? It was in the jeans~

Couldn't find a real man with a Trans Am?
My brothers and I would talk about how one day we were getting one of these sweet rides, eagle and all. Never happened. One day though. One day.

It was in the jeans~ — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Did they fit so well you lost your mind looking at its rear end?

@Hanover The irony in our lives continues...
Once I grew up and stopped chasing cars NicK appeared in my life in this sweet ride

and we are still living, happily, ever after that moment but we are not near the "end" that I am currently aware of. :heart:

Did they fit so well you lost your mind looking at its rear end? — Sir2u

You definitely caught my cue~ :up:

Lol thanks, kinda reminded me of a poodle. :monkey: :joke:

Timeline, male only kitten crawls? :eyes: — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Sorry lovely, I just don't see myself gliding all over your bodice as though I were playing Wham-o Slip N' Slide. I like man alone. :cry:

Hanoverian therapy methods are transcendent in nature, requiring objectifying one's own conduct for introspection. — Hanover

Is this sesh free of charge too? If not, I can pay you when me and Cavacava meet in Israel in a couple of months by holding up a placard writing 'Hanover is a Sexy Beast' somewhere deeply religious to the dismay of passers-by. Like in a bus.

My long winded absurd diversion into a non-existent therapy program only means to say that you looked stupid only to yourself. He thought you looked pretty and still wanted pretty girl to hold his hand. I know everything about men, remember? — Hanover

He never said anything of the sort so I am only left with what was actually said - or not said - but it is nice to imagine that he liked me. You do know quite a lot about men that I would have never thought of myself.

Now splain yourself. There's no pining, hints of sadness, crying. No one is saying "pauvre pauvre TimeLine" because (1) you're not expressing pain, and (2) we don't speak French here. But the point here is that you seem to be seeking not comfort from your non-existent sadness, but instead some sort of understanding of what you're doing wrong in this dance, asking why do you keep stepping on folks' toes. Is that right, or was there really a time of genuine pining and heartbreak that you've just not shared (you can tell us anything, don't be a shy bird). I mean it sounds like you guys stopped seeing each other and you were like "what the fuck was that all about'? — Hanover

I am not a shy bird and am one of the few people here that speak openly about my personal experiences in a Nussbaum kind of way, so here is the honest truth. Just a little over three years have since passed and I nearly died from a broken heart. Quite literally. At one point, his behaviour hurt me so much that I became considerably sick. I cocooned myself away and stopped living and nothing, no one, no matter how much they would implore me to move on and let go, I found myself crying myself to sleep almost every night. I lost all trust in men and there were some days that I wished I never met him because maybe then I would have met someone else and would have been happy. The worst part about it all was that he never let me be me, he never allowed me to show him who I really was because I was too busy either feeling fear or confusion, wondering what he wanted or didn't want and it makes me angry, his games made me so angry because he escaped any responsibility in the hurt that he inflicted, likely telling himself that he done nothing wrong. I am almost certain he is oblivious to how much pain he has caused me and it hurts imagining him shrug his shoulders and tell himself otherwise, just as criminals do. I tried to be someone he would like that I got lost in his maze, realising that I knew nothing about who I really was.

I am very good at hiding my pain. I have always been good at that, because I see such pain as a type of weakness and because I have been on my own from a very young age, appearing strong is a survival mechanism; but deep within I am just a little girl. I had to fight to survive and I needed to survive this as I have everything else in my life. I had to face him and when I saw him again about a year ago, we didn't talk but the 'what the fuck was that all about' seed was planted within me, the empowerment started to grow because he was real again and I could see in his own life that he was simply having fun, that there was so much wrong with him and his social circle that I started to pity him and felt foolish. I was comparing me, someone like me, as being small and worthless because of his behaviour when, in fact, it was the other way around and that is not just the anger talking. As I said, he likes girls that dress like teenage clowns, that have no mind, their ambitions in life are basic and rather than trying to morph into a girl that he would like as I had tried to before, I finally began to see that I do have a mind and I am proud of it, so I started writing a blog writing essays, that I do have proper ambitions and I am proud of it, so I finished a masters degree and volunteered internationally, that I know good people and so intentionally kept my social networking small and intimate.

From that misery grew a powerful transformation and while indeed I am still that little girl inside, still wishing in some way that he could read this and realise his mistakes, still tearing up as I write about my experiences with him, still hoping that he would call me and apologise hoping to reconcile a friendship, still wondering whether he would ever find confidence to be himself and live a life not in the shadow of others but as himself, in the end it is only facts that I can rely on and the facts are that he is long gone and that he never cared for me. Why would he? He never knew me. I never knew me. Until now.

I hope in some way that some of the men here are able to see the importance of being gentle to a woman's feelings.

Your requirements are reasonable, but you don't need to try to universalize them to prove their legitimacy. That is, plenty of women have different requirements than you (thank the good Lord (playful jab)), but different strokes for different folks (allusion to the stroking inherent in the Tootsie Roll). — Hanover

Sorry pal, no stroking in the Tootsie Roll. It kind of involves curling.

Since forever. I labor under no illusions that my insights exceed yours. Your femaleness puts you light years ahead of me in comprehending emotions and motivations. Truth. — Hanover

Wrong. We are just as stupid as you men. We are not light years ahead and that is almost borderline sexist that harbours the notion that somehow we are 'motherly' in our understanding of the male mind and therefore responsible in managing men. Nope. You guys are just as fucking weird to us as we are to you.

But anyhoot (note the Hanoverian method of language adoption and the feelings of comfort it elicits), I didn't read the man child's mind. I just stated the universal truth that all men want women to crawl on their laps like kitty cats (mind out of the gutter perv - talking meowing regular old cats here). — Hanover

Man child. Perfect phrase. As mentioned, I wanted to crawl all over him like a kitten the truth be told, and he remains the only man I have ever met that had some sort of a strange power over me. He was damned attractive. He may have only wanted that, but in doing so he allowed me to catch a glimpse of who I was, someone who would never give that to anyone unless he was the right man. I proved to myself that I am worthy to only be for the one person and the right person (as in, I didn't have sex with him).

Now I am to learn that the failure of the relationship had little really to do with a failure to communicate and his general idiocy, but just old fashioned incompatibility — Hanover

No, his failure to communicate and his general idiocy is confirmation of our incompatibility, that I am compatible with men who are confident and who respect me and admire me as I would them.

Sorry lovely, — TimeLine

Had to ask! :blush:

Did that really just happen?

Did that really just happen? — Hanover

The car or the graceful exchange of entertaining intimate thoughts between two beautiful women and how one can respectfully accept the lack of reciprocation?

B.

B. — Hanover

Okay both hands back up on the keyboard! :lol:

B. — Hanover

Tell me what you expected it to look like?
I am pretty sure that it is not the first time that Timeline has been asked to consider the idea. Surely you know how attractive she is both in mind and body~ Why would I assume that she plays on one team only?

Is this sesh free of charge too? If not, I can pay you when me and Cavacava meet in Israel in a couple of months by holding up a placard writing 'Hanover is a Sexy Beast' somewhere deeply religious to the dismay of passers-by. Like in a bus. — TimeLine

Why not hold a placard that says "The sky is blue" as well, considering you wish to inform the Israelis of the obvious. Oh, and thanks for the invite. I had to wash my hair that day anyway so couldn't have made it anyway.

I hope in some way that some of the men here are able to see the importance of being gentle to a woman's feelings. — TimeLine

It does, and sorry you went through that. I've been on both ends of the break-up thing and both suck, although being dumped is far worse. Being too nice is also a bad thing, where you go through the motions not wanting to hurt someone and dragging it out, her knowing you're hanging on, and me being miserable.

Sorry pal, no stroking in the Tootsie Roll. It kind of involves curling. — TimeLine

Weird.

Wrong. We are just as stupid as you men. We are not light years ahead and that is almost borderline sexist that harbours the notion that somehow we are 'motherly' in our understanding of the male mind and therefore responsible in managing men. Nope. You guys are just as fucking weird to us as we are to you. — TimeLine

No! I'm stupider than you! I'm so going to win this argument. Just wait and see.

I don't want to divert too much, but I do believe the distinctions between men and women go beyond the simple anatomical. You sort of conceded it above where you asked for more understanding by men regarding how they treated women. Men and women are each screwy in the own weird ways, but I am so aware of the magical Spidey sense that women have, I often watch their reactions to see what I'm missing, much like you notice your dog when its ears perk up.

Man child. Perfect phrase. As mentioned, I wanted to crawl all over him like a kitten the truth be told, and he remains the only man I have ever met that had some sort of a strange power over me. He was damned attractive. He may have only wanted that, but in doing so he allowed me to catch a glimpse of who I was, someone who would never give that to anyone unless he was the right man. I proved to myself that I am worthy to only be for the one person and the right person (as in, I didn't have sex with him). — TimeLine

Yeah, it looks like you guys had a major communication break down. That's frustrating even with people you remotely like, much more someone you really want to be with.

No, his failure to communicate and his general idiocy is confirmation of our incompatibility, that I am compatible with men who are confident and who respect me and admire me as I would them. — TimeLine

We all do post game analysis because we want to know what went wrong, but sometimes you realize the game was lost for so many reasons, it's hard to really isolate any one thing. And it's actually easier to lose for a thousand reasons than just one bad play, where you sit around wondering "what if" I hadn't made that one blunder. You guys weren't compatible because your values were different, your communication styles were different, your ambitions were different, and it sounds like you were a whole lot smarter than him. But love is indiscriminate and you fell for Hotty McHotty and got a bit battered, but you're better for it now.

Like the big haired man said "love hurts."