Body and soul...

ahmad bilal

Hi, im new here and i have a thing for thinking. I write sometimes but i am unable to discuss maturity and ability to convey my thoughts on paper with anyone. Here is something i wrote:

"Imagine that earth is our body and moon is our soul. Both are among each other at all times but we cannot see the moon in day light and it lights our way at night and guides our oceans.
Just like we are unaware of our soul when we are occupied by worldy matters but as soon as we are in darkness and despair it guides us through it. It draws its light from the devine as the moon draws its light from the sun. Our soul has significant role in each moment of our life but we are unaware of its presence because it is present in the void and it is communicating with body through the void.
As void itself has presence and it encapsulates all that exist.
If we want to know how seperated our soul is from our body.. We should see how seperated moon is from earth, compared to the size of this whole universe. They look like they are one, yet seperated."

Please identify weak points and please guide how i can i think to think better?

↪ahmad bilal

Its weak points are vagueness and unexplained assumptions. It's more likely to appeal to someone with a poetic style to their philosophical thinking and expression, which is not someone like me.

T Clark

Hi, im new here and i have a thing for thinking. I write sometimes but i am unable to discuss maturity and ability to convey my thoughts on paper with anyone. — ahmad bilal

If you are saying that you have trouble expressing yourself in words, all I can say is you've expressed yourself very clearly in what you've written here.

Just like we are unaware of our soul when we are occupied by worldy matters but as soon as we are in darkness and despair it guides us through it. It draws its light from the devine as the moon draws its light from the sun. Our soul has significant role in each moment of our life but we are unaware of its presence because it is present in the void and it is communicating with body through the void. — ahmad bilal

There are lots of words used to describe who we are, e.g. soul, spirit, ego, self, identity, consciousness, mind, and lots more. I don't tend to think in terms of a soul. I'm not a religious person. On the other hand, I do experience myself acting in the background while I'm not conscious of myself and then the solution to problems, actions, and intentions rise up from somewhere inside me. I picture it as a spring bubbling up from beneath the ground. I'm not sure if that's the same thing you are talking about or not.

snowleopard

↪ahmad bilal

Due to the issues with syntax, grammar, spelling and punctuation, I'm guessing English is not your first language. So assuming you've been studying it, it's best to continue with those studies.

Otherwise, you have the makings of a nice metaphor. However, as with all such metaphors, there is a temptation to over extend and mix them, beyond the simple allegory they are intended to convey. As such, you lost me with the last part, when you ventured into the void, so to speak. Maybe leave out the last three sentences.

ahmad bilal

↪T Clark

yes im talking about that same bubbling up..
Its like we have something innate to pick ourselves up and make us do what is required..
Not everything, but where our hearts go our will follows...

T Clark

yes im talking about that same bubbling up..
Its like we have something innate to pick ourselves up and make us do what is required..
Not everything, but where our hearts go our will follows... — ahmad bilal

You will find I quote Lao Tzu a lot. He talks about acting without acting. That's how it feels to me when it comes from inside me and moves directly into action without conscious thought.

ahmad bilal

↪snowleopard

yes you are right. English is not my first language. The problem is it looked perfect to me :lol:

T Clark

However, as with all such metaphors, there is a temptation to over extend and mix them, beyond the simple allegory they are intended to convey. As such, you lost me with the last part, when you ventured into the void, so to speak. Maybe leave out the last three sentences. — snowleopard

I'll let Ahmad answer for himself, but I got the feeling those last three sentences were the most important part. I agree they could use some additional explication.

If you are saying that you have trouble expressing yourself in words, all I can say is you've expressed yourself very clearly in what you've written here. — T Clark

It's as clear as mud. Let's start with: what's a soul? Something like the moon that guides you, and so on, is hardly the stuff of clarity.

I interpret your reply as an expression of approval more than anything else. Sure, you could shoot back with the comment that I disapprove, but the difference is that I'm speaking the truth and not just paying lip service.

I agree they could use some additional explication. — T Clark

That's an understatement if I ever saw one. Overall, it could do with some additional explication.

snowleopard

↪ahmad bilal

Don't get me wrong. It's a very good attempt for someone who has taken on the significant challenge of learning a new language. So kudos for taking on that challenge, and wanting to improve upon it. One obvious correction, the word Divine is spelled incorrectly, and in the context that you are using it, I would use the uppercase 'D'.

ahmad bilal

What i thought when i was referring to void was: "As moon is present in the void, yet it doesn't need any medium to illuminate earth and pull our oceans. Our soul is also present in void, its mechanisms are unknown yet we can feel it."

ahmad bilal

↪snowleopard

i really appreciate you insights on my writing. And i realized some mistakes that you mentioned...

↪ahmad bilal

Was that really what you thought? Or is it more of a construction designed to appeal to a certain readership? I don't tend to think in those terms, although it's the kind of thing that I could come up with if I cared to. I care more about speaking my mind plainly than waxing poetic.

You also seem more interested or engaged with a milder, more encouraging form of criticism, than my kind of telling it like it is. Meh.

snowleopard

↪ahmad bilal

Well perhaps the void could effectively be worked into it. However, in a strictly metaphysical sense, the void, by definition, would be entirely empty of form. Albeit, if the Heart Sutra is taken into account, emptiness is not other than form. So keep at it. Poetry can take time and many drafts to get it feeling just right. Just keep in mind that sometimes less is more.

T Clark

It's as clear as mud. Let's start with: what's a soul? Something like the moon that guides you, and so on, is hardly the stuff of clarity. — Sapientia

Ahmad, I'd like to introduce you to one of our resident ....well, maybe I won't introduce you to the forum with an example of the types of insults that get passed around here, much as Sapientia deserves them.

From our back and forth, I think I understood what you wrote reasonably well. Also, when I commented on your writing, I was talking about the clarity with which you expressed yourself, not necessarily your ideas. As I indicated, they could use some additional explication.

ahmad bilal

↪Sapientia

I think soul is like that...
Either its clear or it's mud, leaving only muddy resemblance of our body...

Ahmad, I'd like to introduce you to one of our resident ....well, maybe I won't introduce you to the forum with an example of the types of insults that get passed around here, much as Sapientia deserves them. — T Clark

It's a hard life when you don't sugar coat everything you say here. :cry:

But I wouldn't trade it for the world.

T Clark

I interpret your reply as an expression of approval more than anything else. Sure, you could shoot back with the comment that I disapprove, but the difference is that I'm speaking the truth and not just paying lip service. — Sapientia

Your interpretation is wrong. We're not all ..... Well, what I referred to obliquely before.

ahmad bilal

↪T Clark

thank you, this is first review of my writing. Im open to criticism, it will only help me improve.

ahmad bilal

↪Sapientia

i write for my peace of mind not for some readership. Sometimes you have to write to calm your mind. This is the first reality check of my writing.

↪ahmad bilal

I actually quite like your writing, as form of poetic expression, or work of art, albeit with a philosophical undercurrent. But you asked about weak points, so I obliged. As a real stab at answering questions like, "What is a soul?", "Do we have souls?", "How do we know whether or not we have souls?", and "How can they best be described?", it just doesn't give me the kind of answers that I would be looking for.

Some people here are too quick to pounce on what I say because it clashes with or upsets their own way of looking at things - risks throwing it out of kilter. T Clarkey is a fanboy of Lao Tzu, as he was quick to signal, so what do you expect? This stuff is his opium.

T Clark

thank you, this is first review of my writing. Im open to criticism, it will only help me improve. — ahmad bilal

There is definitely some rough and tumble here on the forum. I guess you should get used to it.

ahmad bilal

↪Sapientia

what i believe is "strength lies in differences, not in similarities". So from your point of view i understood that we have to be careful when writing because one cannot comprehend every abstract idea one reads. True/False?
As for any question about "soul", great minds have been exhausted in search of their linguistics answers. So my thought might not have any significance, but here is what i think soul is: "Soul is the life inside this body, the most complex and engineered form of life that exist. It creates joy where mind create happiness. It creates love where mind can only create affection. It creates pain while mind work too hard with its defence mechanisms to fight it. It is something that you identify in the state of flow or mindfulness when your brain is on standby."
I can go on but again i don't think it will make any difference.
What you say?

ahmad bilal

↪T Clark

thank you, I'll keep that in mind

I believe that strength lies in differences, not in similarities. So, from your point of view, I understood that we have to be careful when writing, because one cannot comprehend every abstract idea one reads. Is that true or false? — ahmad bilal

Yes, there is some truth in that.

As for any question about "soul", great minds have been exhausted in search of their linguistics answers. So my thought might not have any significance, but here is what i think soul is: "Soul is the life inside this body, the most complex and engineered form of life that exist. It creates joy where mind create happiness. It creates love where mind can only create affection. It creates pain while mind work too hard with its defence mechanisms to fight it. It is something that you identify in the state of flow or mindfulness when your brain is on standby." I can go on but again I don't think it will make any difference.

What say you? — ahmad bilal

I say that we'd be better off dispensing with the word "soul" altogether, as in my assessment it is rarely helpful in getting to the crux of the matter. I do not believe in anything that I would feel it necessary to call "soul". I say that metaphors and poetic language are not always the best tools at our disposal. I prefer precision to rough comparisons or pointers. It's like you're speaking in riddles.

If I say that thought is like a torch, how much does that tell you about thought? If I say that thought creates joy, how much does that tell you about thought? Couldn't you say the same thing about many other things besides thought?

T Clark

I say that we'd be better off dispensing with the word "soul" altogether, as in my assessment it is rarely helpful in getting to the crux of the matter. And I say that metaphors and poetic language are not always the best tools at our disposal. I prefer precision to rough comparisons or examples. — Sapientia

There are experiences that are probably only expressible in what you call "metaphors and poetic language." You don't explain them, you tell a story about them. I don't call what Ahmad is talking about "soul" but I think he and I share a common experience.

It's not really an idea, it's an experience. At least it was an experience before it was an idea. That's how it is for me.

ahmad bilal

↪T Clark

its hard to explain such an experience to someone. And i believe that soul is something that everyone have to find themself. I was just saying where to look for it...

snowleopard

More to the point about referring to the void. It seems that what you are actually trying to convey is the idea of space, or spaciousness, that which contains and envelopes all forms, which to me means something quite different from 'the void', which perhaps pervades all forms. But all this can be very subjective of course.

So I must concur with T Clark. If the intention here is not to be philosophically exacting, but rather to be poetically allegorical, then it may be best to avoid the tendency to over analyze, as it becomes like dissecting an intricate and lovely insect to discover what makes it so, and in the process destroying it. Sure, terms like 'soul' can be ambiguous, nebulous and mystical; but poetry surely must allow for some subjective and intuitive leeway in interpretation. So go with what intuitively and integrally feels right to you, as your heartfelt expression, and let the interpreters read into it what they may.

It's hard to explain such an experience to someone. And I believe that soul is something that everyone has to find for themselves. I was just saying where to look for it... — ahmad bilal

That's what I don't like about mysticism. It feels like an easy way out. It might even be a kind of defence mechanism. You could say the same thing about God or spirituality or paranormal experiences.

What if it's just bogus? What if it's just a kind of redundant umbrella term for other things? Are you talking about consciousness? Being alive? What is it? Do you even know? And if you don't know what you're talking about, then how is one to make any sense of it? "It's like the moon. You'll have to experience it yourself", just doesn't do it for me. It's the elusive or imaginary "something more" that's the problem for me. Nothing you've tried to describe or explain so far would make me think: "soul". If there's an alternative explanation which is plausible and does away with the addition of "soul", I'll go with that, and I think that that would be reasonable.

ahmad bilal

↪Sapientia

there are things you just know, even without any logical explanation. Intuition is all about it.
As for me that if i know what I'm talking about, "all i know is that i know nothing" Thanks Socrates to put it words.

Body and soul...

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Categories

More Discussions