I've been reading a little bit about so called representational accounts of the mind. — jkg20
The idea seems to be that what is essential to the mental is that mental states are always about things, and thus the mark of the mental is its representational nature. But, if the idea is that we are going to be able to explain the mind in terms of representational states, don't we end up in a circle, since "representation" is not a two-way relation between a representer and a representee, but a three-way relation: one thing represents another thing to or for some third thing, and that third thing is always something concsious - and so explaining the mind in terms of representation is to explain the mind in terms of the mind : hardly an illuminating circle. Also, is it even true that all mental states are about things? What about the unfocussed anxiety I often experience when I'm hungover?
If Bretano did claim that every mental phenomenon includes something as object... — ProcastinationTomorrow
...then isn't jkg20's unfocussed anxiety a counterexample? A general feeling of unease doesn't really have an object does it?
Yes, you did cite Bretano, but citation and interpretation are two distinct things. Sometimes philosophers - and I'm presuming Bretano was a philosopher - say contradictory things even within a single work. My hestitation was merely a manifestation of a principle of charity that would allow Bretano some room to shift his position in the face of an apparent counterexample. — ProcastinationTomorrow
Already in the three citations you've given there seems plenty to disagree with in Bretano,
Also, jkg20's counterexample was not about drunkenness - unfocussed anxiety may result from a binge drinking session, but could have other causes.
But, if the idea is that we are going to be able to explain the mind in terms of representational states, don't we end up in a circle, since "representation" is not a two-way relation between a representer and a representee, but a three-way relation: one thing represents another thing to or for some third thing, and that third thing is always something concsious — jkg20
I've been reading a little bit about so called representational accounts of the mind. — jkg20
Thanks Akanthinos and Ying for the explanations and pointers to further reading. Not that I'm taking any sides here - but what about this unfocussed anxiety of mine? Whether or not it be self-inflicted as a result of drinking too much, it's a mental phenomenon (I presume, although perhaps it depends on definitions of terms) but doesn't seem to have an object. — jkg20
Why? — jkg20
The question I'm interested in is the one ProcastinationTommorow clarified: do such mental phenomena provide counterexamples to theories of mind that require all mental phenomena to have objects?
OK. I'm not.
Is it that the investigation of the causes of the state will reveal that it actually has an object after all, despite its superficial "lack" of a target?
The question I'm interested in is the one ProcastinationTommorow clarified: do such mental phenomena provide counterexamples to theories of mind that require all mental phenomena to have objects? Is it that the investigation of the causes of the state will reveal that it actually has an object after all, despite its superficial "lack" of a target? — jkg20
Not that I'm taking any sides here - but what about this unfocussed anxiety of mine? — jkg20
Whether or not it be self-inflicted as a result of drinking too much, it's a mental phenomenon (I presume, although perhaps it depends on definitions of terms) but doesn't seem to have an object. — jkg20
Not that I'm taking any sides here - but what about this unfocussed anxiety of mine? Whether or not it be self-inflicted as a result of drinking too much, it's a mental phenomenon (I presume, although perhaps it depends on definitions of terms) but doesn't seem to have an object. — jkg20
Edit : Although, now I remember that Merleau-Ponty did talk quite a bit of neurosis, face-blindness and other cognitive-bent problems in Phenomenologie de la Perception. You might want to check it up. It's a great read, as is pretty much everything by M-P. — Akanthinos
I don't remember him talking about neurosis in that text — Ying
Sorry, lost in translation. I took neurosis here to mean nevrose in French, which is just a general term for a (generaly mild) psychopathology. — Akanthinos
M-P talks about ghost limbs and anosognosie (PP 91-96), aphasia (PP 144-156), hysteria (190) and aphony (PP 192).
So it is quite clear that the inner feelings begin in vague generalities, not objects of representation, and the conscious mind apprehends and manipulates these generalities to produce specific objects of intention. — Metaphysician Undercover
I've got the Routledge translation here. I'm guessing you've got a French edition? — Ying
Yes, his complete works — Akanthinos
This volume leaves out "La structure du comportement", unfortunately, doesn't it? — Pierre-Normand
I rather see emotions and events of pain and physical pleasure as purely physical events which (may) inform conscious thought. — Akanthinos
But my point is that these "feelings" do not inform conscious thought as objects. — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes, because the feeling is quite obviously not the object of the emotion. Its object is the perceived but perhaps not thematized dynamic, which reveals itself to consciousness through the feeling. — Akanthinos
As to how theses are apprehended, at least from the point-of-view of phenomenology, it is not possible to apprehend them as anything else than objects. Their becoming available to apprehension is their constitution as objects. — Akanthinos
There is no object though, it is an "unfocused anxiety". That is how these emotions, feelings of desire and intentionality present themselves to the conscious mind. So there is no object to be represented. — Metaphysician Undercover
If phenomenology stipulates that the conscious mind cannot apprehend anything other than objects, then perhaps you ought to consider that phenomenology doesn't accurately describe the capacities of the conscious mind. — Metaphysician Undercover
...don't we end up in a circle, since "representation" is not a two-way relation between a representer and a representee, but a three-way relation: one thing represents another thing to or for some third thing, and that third thing is always something concsious — jkg20
What about the unfocussed anxiety I often experience when I'm hungover? — jkg20
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