i agree with @T Clark on "Internal is as real as external" because it is not what is internal that gets you in trouble, but its the false internal reality that gets us in trouble. We have to work on our internal to improve it by struggle, sacrifice with our internal matters. Work is effort applied to something in some time and that something must be existing, it cannot be imaginary. So it must be real.
Whatever we do, no matter how much we test our reality we can never know the absolute reality. All we know of reality is that it's bound to someone's perception and their way to thinking.

when you identify yourself with your mind(thoughts, behaviors, emotions) then the observer is present, you are just not aware of its presence. But when you take a pause and put a gap in the continuous stream of thoughts your mind is projecting you start to realize that "i still exist without my mind, my thoughts, my emotions etc".
And you feel peace and calmness in those moments of thoughtlessness. This is the core of your life, all else (worry, anxiety, pressure) is created by the mind as its defenses or survival instinct.

I'm not sure you were properly welcomed to The Philosophy Forum. Welcome. I am glad you are here.

quantum physics — ahmad bilal

True, quantum physics doesn't sit well with the naive picture of atoms as hard bits of matter in tiny little solar system atoms. Fortunately quantum physics works when it comes to us sitting down on a chair; the chair keeps us from landing on the floor; all those strong forces, weak forces, chair-supporting quarks and so forth.

Whatever we do, no matter how much we test our reality we can never know the absolute reality. All we know of reality is that it's bound to someone's perception and their way to thinking. — ahmad bilal

I agree that "absolute reality", whatever that is, is something we can not perceive, nor can we penetrate it with theory, like physicists did with quantum physics. (Unless quantum physics is ultimate reality, but I'm over my head here... best say no more.)

Getting back to souls...

I don't believe souls exist, but I would define "soul" as something that exists within us, is not physical, and continues to exist after we are physically dead. In common usage (everyday religion), it is "our soul" that goes to heaven. Christians claim to believe in "the resurrection of the body" -- that's what it says in the creed. What Christians actually seem to believe is that their "soul" will be transmitted directly to heaven (or hell, as the case may be). I don't believe in heaven or hell either, though heaven is a nice idea.

Whether we exist as bodies alone with all our mental apparatus, or whether we are physical beings plus a soul is a matter of belief; believing is seeing, in the case of the soul. Believers see it, non-believers don't. Well, believers don't "see it" because it isn't visible, but you probably get what I mean.

you mean soul is our energy which is intangible, that does not depend on the physical form, and cannot be destroyed upon death?
i agree with this definition as most of the religions do. (including Christianity)
what religions refer to soul is our consciousness, they say that consciousness is separate from body as it is the only trait that distinguishes humans from other living creatures and consciousness will be put to sleep upon death and resurrected on judgment day, like we wake up from sleep.

I have investigated the idea of the soul from the perspective of various versions of Idealism, from Plato to Kant, but for the most part I'm none the wiser, as it often seems quite convoluted and hard to make sense of -- at least for this finite mind. However, if there was one version that did somewhat resonate intuitively, it would have to be that of Plotinus, if a bit too moralistic in my view ... Here is a brief overview

Not differentiating the reality of the physical world (which is external, perceived by the senses) with the reality inside our heads (which include imagination, wishes, delusion, emotions, ideas, etc.) can get us into trouble pretty quickly. — Bitter Crank

And visa versa, although I'm guessing you disagree.

I agree that "absolute reality", whatever that is, is something we can not perceive, nor can we penetrate it with theory, like physicists did with quantum physics. (Unless quantum physics is ultimate reality, but I'm over my head here... best say no more.) — Bitter Crank

Then it doesn't exist, which is how I see it. I think the case can be made that objective reality does not exist. That's not a particularly exotic idea. Of course, it's also a matter of choice. Here are quotes I just used in another discussion - from R.G. Collingwood "An Essay on Metaphysics."

Metaphysics is the attempt to find out what absolute presuppositions have been made by this or that person or group of persons, on this or that occasion or group of occasions, in the course of this or that piece of thinking.

Absolute presuppositions are not verifiable. This does not mean that we should like to verify them but are not able to; it means that the idea of verification is an idea which does not apply to them....

For me, the existence of objective reality is an absolute presupposition.

I can only give a very intuitive take on the idea of the Soul, or Oversoul, not especially derived from any given philosophy or spiritual tradition, per se. My sense is that it might be some greater transpersonal, trans-spatiotemporal source-entity that is dreaming the maya-dream of apparent subject/object separation -- or disassociation may be the better descriptor -- into recursive, fractal-like, multidimensional loci or iterations of itself, as multiple unique, individuated, phenomenal self-expressions, for the sake of this relational experience with other such entities, as is its creative imperative. As such, in theory, any two or more individuals within a given phenomenal construct, though not necessarily the same construct, could be aspects of the same Soul, which spans many such dimensional constructs. These Souls would be once-removed aspects, so to speak, of ultimate Divine Beingness, for lack of a better name for the nameless, which, while it is the essence of all expression, must remain noumenal to any given phenomenal expression.

English Please...

ESL class dismissed ... Don't forget your homework :wink:

haha, i won't

The video has some points i was referring to, Body corroupting the soul was something new for me :up:

Sounds like you're describing consciousness or identity, neither of which it seems appropriate to call calm. But if you're talking about some sort of meditative state, on the other hand, then sure. Whence the need for "soul" here? What presumed benefit is there to using that word over others?

I know that this might come as a surprise, but I don't call consciousness "soul", unlikely events "miracles", love or the universe "God", and so on.

yes i was referring to state of total or nearly total awareness. and meditation is one way to achieve it.
All teaching of meditation teach that in deep meditative state, you are connected to your soul.
Soul is that authoritative voice in your head that saves you in survival situations, like something has taken over for your survival. People who engage in dangerous or potentially activities know that.(Myself as a mountaineer). To get the feeling, imagine getting so angry that you are out of control. Next day you think "Man! that was not me!!". Just like that, something takes over to save you, albeit its not successful every time.
Soul is hiding till it's necessary to come out, either you are looking out for it or extreme emotion has provoked it. Extreme emotional pain, extreme joy and so on...

But those kind of descriptions make discussions of "soul" less controversial - to the point where I begin to lose my motivation for responding in the first place. Talk of "soul" is more provocative than talk of emotions or insight or meditation or what have you.

then i guess you like the discussion fired up!

You wouldn't be too far off. :razz: :fire:

But those kind of descriptions make discussions of "soul" less controversial - to the point where I begin to lose my motivation for responding in the first place. Talk of "soul" is more provocative than talk of emotions or insight or meditation or what have you. — Sapientia

But I think "soul" is more than emotions, insight, or meditation. It's as much an entity as mind, self, or identity. You might prefer one of those words, but a lot of people, including me, don't consider "soul" provocative at all, even though it's not the word I normally use.

But I think "soul" is more than emotions, insight, or meditation. It's as much an entity as mind, self, or identity. You might prefer one of those words, but a lot of people, including me, don't consider "soul" provocative at all, even though it's not the word I normally use. — T Clark

Well, yes, that comes as no surprise, because you're one of those people who are more sympathetic to that sort of thing, and I'm one of those people who are more critical of it.

Well, yes, that comes as no surprise, because you're one of those people who are more sympathetic to that sort of thing, and I'm one of those people who are more critical of it. — Sapientia

Which was my point.

Which was my point. — T Clark

A point which did not need to be made.

A point which did not need to be made. — Sapientia

Punctiliousness.

I did some research and found some data on soul.
It makes sense if you think of it in terms of quantum physics. In my response about quantum physics i said:

Branch of quantum physics is contributing to reveal truth more than ever, all matter which we can comprehend in our reality is 99.9% empty space because atom is 99.9% space. if we dig deeper we can find "Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter."

It’s quite the conundrum, isn’t it? Our experience tells us that our reality is made up of physical material things, and that our world is an independently existing objective one. Again, what quantum mechanics reveals is that there is no true “physicality” in the universe, that atoms are made of focused vorticies of energy-miniature tornadoes that are constantly popping into and out of existence. The revelation that the universe is not an assembly of physical parts, suggested by Newtonian physics, and instead comes from a holistic entanglement of immaterial energy waves stems from the work of Albert Einstein, Max Planck, and Werner Heisenberg, among others

- Lipton, H Bruce. The Biology of Belief. United States: Hay House INC. 2008

And then i did some research on our energy systems, only to find out that it states about same thing i.e. Chakras, Flow of Energy, Energy Healing and so on...

And i found this piece of text explaining soul:

The soul is our unique identity within the creation. It is like a powerful sun that accumulates the wisdom of each of our human, and other types of lives. It is the soul that becomes enlightened. When the soul awakens, it merges with its Cosmic source while retaining its unique sentience.

Human beings are energetic projections from the power of our souls. The human body is within the consciousness of the soul. The entire soul cannot be in one human body. That would be like the entire sun fitting into a house. Not only would it never fit in a zillion years, it would burn the house to a cinder with lightning speed.

The soul fills the body with life force and is connected to the body via energetic cords. The body has many energy centers called Chakras which attend to varying aspects of life, reality and self. When a soul is awakening, the Chakras of the human projection are altered accordingly. All wisdom accrued in a lifetime is immediately assimilated by the soul force.

We also have other energetic bodies and many other energetic principles and mechanics at play, interweaving with one another like golden threads in a beautiful expansive tapestry. They synergize, fluctuate and alter our entire system.

We have energetic bodies such as the Astral body, the Etheric body and our Elemental body. The Elemental body has to do with how our thoughts and beliefs play out in our physical forms. We speak about things that happen during our process of living, but rarely do we go into the detailed mechanics of just how they do happen energetically.

The Astral body travels from the physical body regularly as we sleep, and we can experience many things, even other lifetimes we have had and those who have passed on. The Astral body is connected to our bodies via a silver cord. Often, when you feel yourself jump in your sleep it is your Astra body coming back into the body. The truth of the matter is in all of this, that there is no 'travel' in subtle energies. There is just change of frequency which we in the third dimension perceive as movement. The jump I mentioned earlier of the Astral body returning to the physical body is a change of frequency that impacts physical form.

There are those who use techniques to have out of body experiences while they are awake, such as in the Eckankar technique. They sit in meditation as their Astral body travels, showing their minds all it sees. But the truth is, whenever we think of another place, our thought body is automatically there. It is simply vibrating at a frequency that most cannot see, and we have not trained ourselves to be able to experience what is called 'remote viewing
', via our thoughts. There is no limit to thought....no time, no space, and therefore no distance limitations. But I digress.

The Etheric body is attuned to higher dimensional energies, and interacts with our soul in bringing those energies into our physical forms as we practice Consciousness techniques such as meditation, etc.

Everything that exists is energy. There is no solid matter, only the perceptual illusion of solid matter. The body therefore, and all aspects of it: bone, flesh, nerves, brain, organs, hair, etc. are moving, pulsing energy vibrating at the rate of speed of this third dimension.

The soul is now in many dimensions simultaneously, and has other projections of consciousness in other dimensions now.

A great deal more could be written on our energetic components....books and books. But this gives a very simplistic picture.

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in this world surrounding the soul. Most human beings have a distorted and simplistic comprehension of it because they have settled on stories that distort it and diminish it.

I know it is a long post, but this effort has been put in order to clarify the idea of soul.
What do you guys think about it?

What do you guys think about it? — ahmad bilal

It's comparing apples and oranges. One is literature on quantum physics, the other some sort of New Age pseudophilosophy. Kill it with fire. :fire:

It's comparing apples and oranges.

Well, if you imagine viewing them from some distance, both are spherical...

One thing many of these ideas about the soul have in common is that they still depend upon being comprised of some energetic or aether-like substrate. What if any such substrate is an entirely cognitive construct, and these souls are no more nor less than the 'stuff' that dreams are made on? -- if I may borrow from The Bard.

yes, that is why our thoughts effect our physical health.
And according to text i posted, dreams are related to only astral body.
Upon death, your "atoms" are alive and doing what they usually do, but you are not alive. That "energy", "life", "soul" is not present anymore.

I know it is a long post, but this effort has been put in order to clarify the idea of soul.
What do you guys think about it? — ahmad bilal

It always bothers me when people conflate spiritual entities with scientific principles. Prime example - Discussions of the illusions of self discussed in eastern philosophies with quantum mechanics. The existence and meaning of the soul was being discussed thousands of years before anyone imagined QM. If the two have anything in common, it is purely metaphorical. The seat of consciousness and free will is not a function of the behavior of subatomic particles.

I will repeat my habitual refrain - One (spiritual entities) is a metaphysical phenomenon. It's a matter of value, choice, faith. The other (physical entities) is a physical phenomenon. It's a matter of fact.

One (spiritual entities) is a metaphysical phenomenon. It's a matter of value, choice, faith. — T Clark

You can choose whether or not you have a soul? Perhaps you really mean that you can choose whether or not to believe that you have a soul. So how is this different from any principles of physics, which you can also choose whether or not to believe?

You can choose whether or not you have a soul? Perhaps you really mean that you can choose whether or not to believe that you have a soul. So how is this different from any principles of physics, which you can also choose whether or not to believe? — Metaphysician Undercover

You actually can't do any of that with sincerity, but we've had that argument before and I'm not in any rush to have it again.