Police reform is certainly something I support, but no matter how much police reform we attempt the same problems will continue to persist in high degrees. We also need economic and political reform (political reform if only to accompany the economic reform) to more directly address the prevalence of crime itself in black communities. We need judicial and punitive reform to not only better decide what we lock people up for, but also how we lock them up, and whether or not prison itself is about "punishment and deterrence" or "reform". We need to look for and confront each and every reality that comes to bear on why many black (and de-facto, why many white) communities are trapped in cycles of poverty and crime. Fair minded folks being unaware of their own prejudices in today's world is but one drop in that massive and complex causal bucket — VagabondSpectre

OK. So the OP kicked ass. This last post did. Where do you publish your writings?

The US is a multi-racial society. I know of no country on earth that has more experience with creating that on a mass scale. I believe one of the things we've learned is that calling "racist!" doesn't accomplish anything. Legislation and enforcement does. If our ability to enforce laws is crippled by a diseased police force, that will essentially render us impotent. We'll be stuck knowing what we want to be with no way to get there.

That's why the question is important.

I was reading into the "best practices" report and it actually seems very comprehensive in it's recommendations:

" The President should support the creation of a National Crime and Justice Task Force to examine all areas of criminal justice and propose reforms; as a corollary to this effort, the task force also recommends that the President support programs that take a comprehensive and inclusive look at community-based initiatives addressing core issues such as poverty, education, and health and safety." — 21st Century Policing Report

The document does deliver what seem like good strategies for reducing police violence and restoring community trust (more oversight, transparency reform, accountability reform, better and more training, better technology, more engagement between police departments and the communities they police, and more!) and even addresses some social factors which contribute to police violence indirectly (poverty and crime namely). Hopefully this report will have substantial impact.

It is however unable to address the legislative realities of the criminal code (such as the fact that drug addicts can be arrested and incarcerated for an unreasonably long time simply for possession or growing/selling marijuana) which give rise to a staggeringly high prison population (the highest in the world in fact, bar none). It cannot address the reality that many who spend time in a federal prison come out a more hardened criminal than when they went in, and with much less of a chance of recovering economically by legal means...

Ensuring that we have fair and balanced police force is a natural and I think necessary first step toward reducing the racial disparities we see in law enforcement, and though this alone is a complex task (an eminently achievable one however, in my opinion), next to the greater social, cultural and economic factors that drive crime in and of itself, it feels like less than a half-measure.

P.S: Thanks for the compliment Mongrel! I don't know why but something drives me to occasionally put a great deal of effort into Philosophy Forum exclusives. I've considered self-publishing some stuff (I most like to write about moral philosophy, atheism, and global politics) but I guess I've never found a medium that can beat the satisfaction and depth that ye olde forum has been able to provide. Any suggestions on what kind of medium might be conducive for exporting some of my better formed views?

You're equating past patriarchy and white supremacy with a "legacy of prejudice" that exudes constantly from "fair-minded folks"... I think you implicitly meant fair-skinned folks here because surely it is possible for a fair minded person to not actually discriminate against black people in any meaningful or perceptually significant way. — VagabondSpectre

I'm specifically not equating them, but relating them. No, I meant fair-minded. I know from my own case that one can be minded to be fair but fall into prejudice. Indeed prejudice is how the mind works - once bitten, twice shy.

I know prejudice exists, but you make it seem like every single black person in America experiences racism "day in - day out", and we're all to blame. — VagabondSpectre

I am not in America, and so My experiences are of British society, but I am telling you the truth of my life. I don't imagine that Americans are less prejudiced that the British, so my expectation would be that indeed every single black person experiences negative stereotyping prejudicial behaviour multiple times every day, day in day out.

When I was a kid there was a nasty little trick we used to play on each other; sticking a notice on someone's back without their knowing, saying 'kick me', or some such. One could spend some time wandering around wondering why folks were behaving oddly, staring, pointing, giggling, and occasionally kicking.

The nice thing about carrying such a sign, is that as soon as you know about it you can take it off, and that is why folks straighten their hair with caustic soda and try to bleach their skin.

When it comes blacks getting pulled over by police way more often for driving expensive cars (under suspicion of having stolen it), yes it is prejudiced discrimination on the part of the police; it's not fair to make a presumption of guilt based on race ("presumption of guilt" is unlawful entirely). But there's an underlying problem that is totally missed when we think to ourselves "Ahh, these police who pull over blacks more often are simply racists". It's an uncomfortable reality that vehicle theft is a crime very prevalent in black communities. Cops in certain areas are actually arresting blacks for auto theft way more often because they happen to be committing vehicle theft much more often. The police then go on and allow these experiences to affect their decision and judgment of who to randomly (a questionable act in and of itself) pull over, and wrongfully so. It's in my view not actually a legacy of racism that makes some police more likely to pull over blacks, it's the result of ongoing stereotyping caused by disproportionate vehicle theft rates in the black community. — VagabondSpectre

This is one small example of how prejudice is self sustaining. Because it is 'known' that black people are more likely to be involved in car crime, black people receive more attention from the police; because they receive perhaps twenty times more attention, more black people are discovered to be involved with car crime. So the statistics prove the prejudice. It's an excellent of how the legacy of racism is an ongoing sustained stereotyping.

...very often people wielding this definition turn around and say "all white people are racist, and minorities simply cannot be racist". — VagabondSpectre

Some people say this, but I am not one of them. I would say that everyone is prejudiced in various ways against short people, ugly people, women, gingers, the disabled, the poor, the foreigners, whatever. No one is immune, and black men, for example are quite capable of overt sexism, and very prone to stereotyping white folks.

There is however an important difference between the racial prejudice of a minority and a majority; power. The prejudice of black folks has little impact on the lives of whites.

It is especially the denial of the existence of a problem that is the daily experience of black people that becomes - maddening. — unenlightened

I repeat myself for emphasis, and to make clear that when I say 'maddening' I mean it literally. To have one's experience systematically denied by society at large is to be thrust into a solipsistic nightmare world of paranoia - is it a conspiracy or am I mad?

It is neither, of course, but it is real and it is being denied. Quite often the understandable response to having one's experiences denied is to exaggerate, to become angry, to separate from that group that is denying, and you will see all this in the media. It is not helpful, but it is understandable, just as it is understandable but unhelpful that white folks of goodwill quite honestly deny their prejudice because they fail to see it. It is the nature of prejudice that one looks through it, like tinted glasses, and doesn't look at it.

This is uncomfortable viewing:

I only went as far as the Lois James study. The study itself states:

"..the current study only measured the alpha waves of participants drawn from the general public, not law enforcement or the military. Consequently, wrote the authors, “results from this sample are not generalizable to sworn officers.”

It only speculates that it can be generalized to police officers in the field.

I can also speculate, and I speculate that this lady is manipulating information to foster her conservative ideology.

It is however unable to address the legislative realities of the criminal code (such as the fact that drug addicts can be arrested and incarcerated for an unreasonably long time simply for possession or growing/selling marijuana) which give rise to a staggeringly high prison population (the highest in the world in fact, bar none). It cannot address the reality that many who spend time in a federal prison come out a more hardened criminal than when they went in, and with much less of a chance of recovering economically by legal means... — VagabondSpectre

I think there is reason to believe that the war on drugs was partly driven by racism. Trump's "law and order" agenda is covertly linked to racism, if not in Trump himself, in some of his supporters. The fact that David Duke has publicly expressed appreciation for Trump's message says it all.

This link is by no means recent. It goes back at least to the Nixon administration. I'm not sure what the solution to that is.

I wonder if it's similar to the Prohibition era, where in some areas anti-Irish sentiment piggy-backed concerns about alcohol abuse. The solution was legalization of alcohol.

I speculate that this lady is manipulating information to foster her conservative ideology. — Cavacava

There may be something to that, but I think there is also a deal of truth to the general thesis that black neighbourhoods are badly policed and black on black killing is a far bigger problem than police on black.

The whole gun thing is very far from my experience in the UK, where carrying a knife in public without good reason is an offence. But I notice the phrase "armed suspect" and wonder what makes an armed person into a suspect in the circumstance where being armed is not itself suspicious?

All right let's go on to the next 'study' Ms McDonald cites. The paper by Harvard Economist Roland G. Fryer, Jr. His paper is a 'working paper', it is not a peer reviewed study, it was not a "Harvard Paper".

Snopes.com outlined the information in the paper. It was anonymously funded, and it relied on police statements and information, which are the one of the very things we have come to question based primarily on citizen videos...the police's own cameras always seem to go on the fritz when one of these tragic events occur.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/15/harvard-study-officer-involved-shootings/

But I notice the phrase "armed suspect" and wonder what makes an armed person into a suspect in the circumstance where being armed is not itself suspicious? — unenlightened

Perhaps when they have a weapon in their hand and are pointing it at you?

I'm specifically not equating them, but relating them. No, I meant fair-minded. I know from my own case that one can be minded to be fair but fall into prejudice. Indeed prejudice is how the mind works - once bitten, twice shy. — Unenlightened

If someone is prejudiced, then they're not fair minded.

Prejudice is not how the mind works... Prejudice may be a natural phenomenon of minds, but so is acceptance and loyalty, learning, and even open-mindedness.

On the one hand you say humans are just naturally prejudiced, on the other hand you say that we are prejudiced because of a "legacy of prejudice" which is due to the history of "white supremacy and patriarchy".

So which is it? Both? Which prejudices are inherent to all minds and which are the prejudices I inherited because of history?

The nice thing about carrying such a sign, is that as soon as you know about it you can take it off, and that is why folks straighten their hair with caustic soda and try to bleach their skin. — Unenlightened

You're saying that people who straighten their hair are doing so to escape the social pangs of being black in the west? A lot of them do it because curly black hair is typically notoriously hard to manage, and a lot of people like the aesthetic.

How many black women actually bleach their skin? This might sound controversial, but I submit to you that black women are not bleaching their skin (in whatever numbers they happen to be doing so) to escape social inequality and the average racial discrimination that they are want to experience while black; they're doing it because that's their idea of what is beautiful.

The culture of dark shaming that exists specifically within the black community itself (putting down blacks who are darker than you on an aesthetic level) might be the result of people thinking that there is something not beautiful about having very dark skin, but there's nothing me and my inherent prejudices can do about that.

This is one small example of how prejudice is self sustaining. Because it is 'known' that black people are more likely to be involved in car crime, black people receive more attention from the police; because they receive perhaps twenty times more attention, more black people are discovered to be involved with car crime. So the statistics prove the prejudice. It's an excellent of how the legacy of racism is an ongoing sustained stereotyping. — Unenlightened

Here's the thing though, blacks do commit vehicle theft more often in America right now. You're suggesting they're not committing vehicle theft any more often than whites, that rather a prejudiced police force simply goes after them for vehicle theft more often, simply due to prejudice, and that this explains the statistical disparity; prejudice reinforcing prejudice right?

This may be true to some degree, but there is a distinct and massive degree to which it is not true. Crime rates in black communities really are higher than any other racial demographic and no amount of police training and acknowledgement of prejudice can affect the root causal forces that contribute to this undeniable reality. The unyielding presumption that every statistical racial disparity can be explained by prejudice is outright detrimental to any comprehensive effort to understand and address crime and poverty in black communities. These are really severe problems whose causes extend far beyond just prejudice.

There is however an important difference between the racial prejudice of a minority and a majority; power. The prejudice of black folks has little impact on the lives of whites. — Unenlightened

This is exactly the rhetoric I think naturally leads to racial resentment and guilt. This is the (re)definition of white supremacy.

It's proof begins with the lived experiences of persons of color.

Individual experiences of racist discrimination are pointed out and a picture of America is painted that there is a severe on-going day-to-day white supremacist system afflicting all blacks. This is a massive leap and it has grand implications. "White supremacist" might not be your choice of words, but it IS the choice of words of the popular intellectuals who would weigh in to support your assertion, and from whom I suspect your assertions originate.

"A RACIST: A racist is one who is both privileged and socialized on the basis of race by a white supremacist (racist) system. The term applies to all white people (i.e., people of European descent) living in the United States, regardless of class, gender, religion, culture or sexuality. By this definition, people of color cannot be racists, because as peoples within the U.S. system, they do not have the power to back up their prejudices, hostilities or acts of discrimination. (This does not deny the existence of such prejudices, hostilities, acts of rage or discrimination.) " — Chronic Disparity : Strong and Pervasive Evidence of Racial Inequalities

At this point if I were to deny that I had been the recipient of "privilege" because of my race, I would be told that I was simply unaware of it, and that this unawareness is evidence of the privilege itself.

I repeat myself for emphasis, and to make clear that when I say 'maddening' I mean it literally. To have one's experience systematically denied by society at large is to be thrust into a solipsistic nightmare world of paranoia - is it a conspiracy or am I mad?

It is neither, of course, but it is real and it is being denied. Quite often the understandable response to having one's experiences denied is to exaggerate, to become angry, to separate from that group that is denying, and you will see all this in the media. It is not helpful, but it is understandable, just as it is understandable but unhelpful that white folks of goodwill quite honestly deny their prejudice because they fail to see it. It is the nature of prejudice that one looks through it, like tinted glasses, and doesn't look at it. — Unenlightened

What is being denied is that the experiences of individuals are necessarily representative of the entire demographic that person belongs to. I'm all for listening to people's lived experiences, but I'm also for questioning whether not individual experiences are representative of the majority, or in this case,the whole majority white race.

What is also being denied is that all white folks of good will carry out prejudiced aggressions and micro-aggressions. Whether we're talking about offensive behavior or a police officer choosing whether or not to pull someone over, I reject your assertion that prejudice is ingrained in all of us.

I reject that racism still has the institutionally and culturally reinforced power that it once had. I contend that we have in fact made progress since the 50's and the ensuing civil rights movements, and that this progress has been significant and lasting. I believe that humans beings can live among one another without being prejudiced against each other because of differences between them. Prejudice exists, certainly it does, nobody is actually denying that. Nobody is actually denying the lived experiences of individual people; what's being denied is that prejudice from white people is the main causal force holding black communities down (i.e, the factors which perpetuate crime and poverty in black communities at disproportionate rates).

I reject the assertions that all white people contribute to and benefit from this white supremacy (through inherent or historically inherited prejudice that they may or may not be aware of), and that all black people suffer and are burdened because of it, daily.

It's odd that you should accuse the entire human race of wearing the tinted glasses of inherent or historical prejudice. The assertion that we all inherently are prejudicial is itself an ideological lens all of it's own. I'm not opposed to lenses, they can help us to see things after all, but what about an economic or cultural or political lens? It's not surprising that people wielding only one of these lenses will attribute it's focus as a predominant causal force in the world where other lenses, or a combination of other lenses, would have been much more appropriate.

Perhaps when they have a weapon in their hand and are pointing it at you? — tom

Yes, perhaps. But perhaps when you suspect they might be going to point it at you. And perhaps you might be more inclined to suspect that of a black man. This is the difficulty, that the world is made of expectations. My hope is that we philosophers at least can try to see some of the difficulties and complexities and show some charity to both the police and black people. I suspect that both have faults and virtues in full measure.[

I actually discuss the Friar study in the second post of this thread. Having read a fair bit of it myself it does make many acknowledgments toward the difficulties and inherent bias contained in collecting data, including the fact that data they collect on police is sometimes collected by the police themselves. They aggregate data from multiple sources, including public contact surveys, and also analysis of information contained within individual police report write-ups themselves which otherwise are not readily available for statistical analysis.

More access to information would go a long way to strengthening the conclusions of this research paper, wherever they might lead. And even though PragerU might jump on the chance to create the most drastic impressions they can muster by cherry picking figures from the report (as is I believe their political marketing agenda), I'm not convinced that the paper is valueless. Here it is if you're interested: http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

Prejudice is not how the mind works... Prejudice may be a natural phenomenon of minds, but so is acceptance and loyalty, learning, and even open-mindedness.

On the one hand you say humans are just naturally prejudiced, on the other hand you say that we are prejudiced because of a "legacy of prejudice" which is due to the history of "white supremacy and patriarchy".

So which is it? Both? Which prejudices are inherent to all minds and which are the prejudices I inherited because of history? — VagabondSpectre

Prejudice is the mind's heuristic in action. Quick and dirty - women are ... something probably comes to mind and when you see a woman, that comes with it. In this sense it is a natural process. I've seen some swans and they were all white, therefore...

And one learns, not only from experience, but also from the culture, and culture is the presence of history. So I am saying there is a natural proclivity for prejudice on the one hand and that one, not inevitably, but inevitably if one does not struggle to make oneself aware of them, inherits the prejudices of one's culture.

This may be true to some degree, but there is a distinct and massive degree to which it is not true. Crime rates in black communities really are higher than any other racial demographic and no amount of police training and acknowledgement of prejudice can affect the root causal forces that contribute to this undeniable reality. — VagabondSpectre

Yes, I do not wish to deny the fact that crime rates in black communities are higher. But please try to see that the 'true to some degree' has a huge impact psychologically, and hence socially. 'To some degree' the police are the enemy out to get you if you are black; even you admit it. It is really important to try to turn this around, because the police being seen as the enemy is a major contributor to crime in black neighbourhoods. So it is really important to acknowledge the limited truth underlying the perception, and act on it, in order then to be able to gain the support and confidence of the black community at large.

The rest of your post seems to be largely addressed to a position to which I do not subscribe - You might consider that it could be that prejudice leads you to assume that if i make this claim, then I am the kind of someone who makes that claim.

I didn't see your post, kinda scanned through posts until I watched the incredible rant that the lady on the video put up against BLM.

The DOJ, report after report, has found fault in the police systems in Chicago, Baltimore, and Ferguson. So I am suspicious of any report that relies on police information. Report after report finds systemic problems in the US criminal justice system in large urban areas.

I am not surprised that the author Dr. Fryer was surprised by his own results...probably due to faulty police reports. Remember Sandra Bland's horrific death at the hands of the police, happened just outside of Houston, TX. They said she committed suicide...bullshit!

And one learns, not only from experience, but also from the culture, and culture is the presence of history. So I am saying there is a natural proclivity for prejudice on the one hand and that one, not inevitably, but inevitably if one does not struggle to make oneself aware of them, inherits the prejudices of one's culture. — unenlightened

"Culture is the presence of history"...

So you're not saying that all white people are inherently prejudiced, just that white culture itself is prejudiced, and unless we as white people struggle against our culture, we will inevitably succumb to that racist prejudice?

Yes, I do not wish to deny the fact that crime rates in black communities are higher. But please try to see that the 'true to some degree' has a huge impact psychologically, and hence socially. 'To some degree' the police are the enemy out to get you if you are black; even you admit it. It is really important to try to turn this around, because the police being seen as the enemy is a major contributor to crime in black neighbourhoods. So it is really important to acknowledge the limited truth underlying the perception, and act on it, in order then to be able to gain the support and confidence of the black community at large. — unenlightened

I'm not opting to be selective in trying to understand why crime rates are higher in black communities, I'm looking for as many sources as possible, nor am I making any final conclusions on the matter beyond what amounts to saying "Hey guys, I think racism is a smaller causal force in the west today than many of us feel it is". I think it's healthy for us to begin to accept that racism and prejudice are becoming less and less prevalent because, A: it's true, and B: It allows us to begin to focus on and understand the non-prejudice oriented factors perpetuating today's social problems in a way that is not distracted and obfuscated by inflated perceptions of racism and the ensuing racial tension/guilt that must then be dealt with. "Police are out to get black people" is not a rational portrayal of the American police force as a whole...

The rest of your post seems to be largely addressed to a position to which I do not subscribe - You might consider that it could be that prejudice leads you to assume that if i make this claim, then I am the kind of someone who makes that claim. — unenlightened

The rest of my post was about how presuming that everyone is prejudiced, and then claiming that their denial of their prejudice is evidence that it exists, is a divisive tautology.

I deny your presumption that every black person suffers from prejudice every single day in the west, or America. If that claim is true than it stands to reason that every single fair-minded white person in the west contributes to the oppression of blacks every single day in the west, right? I'm sympathetic to your experiences, but this is not the world that I see.

It allows us to begin to focus on and understand the non-prejudice oriented factors perpetuating today's social problems in a way that is not distracted and obfuscated by inflated perceptions of racism and the ensuing racial tension/guilt that must then be dealt with. "Police are out to get black people" is not a rational portrayal of the American police force as a whole... — VagabondSpectre

I'd say it's just the opposite. The "non-prejudical" aspects aren't separate to social problems and how our society is failing black people. Consider the higher crime rate. What does this mean? What happens when someone is committing crimes? They become targets for the police.

The police are quite literally out to get black people who are committing crimes. Before we even get to the question of specific racial abuse enacted by police, there is already a racially charged element which affects the black people-- the police, by their very mission, are out to get more black people and have an impact on the individuals in their community.

Racism is not merely a question of one individual abusing another. It's also about the social context and the impact it has on people's lives. To be poor, committing crimes and to be sort after by the police (even if the person is guilty and justly pursued) are factors of prejudice themselves.

I deny your presumption that every black person suffers from prejudice every single day in the west, or America. If that claim is true than it stands to reason that every single fair-minded white person in the west contributes to the oppression of blacks every single day in the west, right? I'm sympathetic to your experiences, but this is not the world that I see. — VagabondSpectre

I quite understand that white folks don't see it and don't want to see it. I could present experimental evidence, as I have in the past, and reference psychological theories to support my position, but if you deny my direct experience, then you will easily deny the supporting evidence, so I won't trouble.

It is, alas, the smallness of each incident that makes it deniable; how the good looking people always 'accidentally' get the best table at a restaurant, how the concerned citizen chooses to intervene on the occasion when the suspect just happens to be black, how the store detective just happens to be watching the foreign woman for some very good reason. You know it took me a while to notice it myself; perhaps if you chat to some of your black friends and neighbours about it they will start to point it out to you as you go about town. Each time it will look like bad luck, or coincidence, until eventually that cannot be sustained.

I quite understand that white folks don't see it and don't want to see it. — unenlightened

Some people are just so convinced that they know everything that they aren't able to listen and gain something from the experiences of others.

Perhaps racism is endemic to democracy, being chromatic it is easier to see.

If the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness reflect the trans valuation of religious ideals into democratic 'secular' society, then sin, barbarism and the worst of religion, its intolerance of diversity, are also trans valued, just not overtly. These negative values show up in class structure, as in the dominant class's superiority over other classes in society. In how society subsidizes the poor and is antagonistic about it.

This 'antagonism' is not overt, it is denied. Instead of promoting economically blighted areas in large cities, they are earmarked for the 'war on poverty', the 'war on drugs', the 'war on____'. The solution to urban issues, I think, is impossible from with-out these communities, it can't be imposed upon them, these communities must see the benefit of acting in a manner consistent with a better life from their point of view.

So yea, I think racism is all around us, and we don't see it because we breath it, it is institutionalized.

So yea, I think racism is all around us, and we don't see it because we breath it, it is institutionalized. — Cavacava

We don't share the same world as much as logic might suggest. Sometimes within the same geographic space multiple worlds rub shoulder without seeing each other... "From the penthouse apartment to the knife on the A-train... it's not that far." That's from a song that sums up my experience travelling around from one world to another and I know there are many I don't know about... possibly right beside me now.

I'm a woman who worked in electronic engineering for 10 years. I'm a white person (I can pass for that) who grew up in an area where the black population was pretty high. I specifically remember becoming aware of the concept that there are only two races. I remember how weird that seemed considering that people are all different colors. Most black people aren't black. Patrick, a little boy I grew up with... his skin was actually black. Patrick's deal was he thought going around kissing girls right in the mouth was awesome. Looking back... it was a really good way to pass on viruses. All the girls in my first grade class would run from him when they saw him coming. Not because he was black. We all knew he was black. We didn't understand that he was black. The notion that racism is innate is bullshit. It's not. For some people, the information just isn't there in the little world they inhabit to let them know that.

I say the issue of sexism, sexual harassment, racism, racial intolerance.. it's all very complicated when we get past real discrimination regarding employment and housing. I could go on for some time explaining why it's so complicated. Racism is different from sexism (obviously). The only people I've talked to about that were black females. I don't know a black-male perspective (which...let's be honest.. it is black males that this thread is mostly about). The perspective that has the ring of in-depth examination is Bitter Cranks. I've noticed that before.

such as a falling minimum wage — VagabondSpectre

False. There was higher black employment without the minimum wage, and this was during segregation.

the disproportionate affliction of police violence and incarceration on blacks — VagabondSpectre

This is due to the fact that blacks commit more crimes, overwhelmingly against each other, which shows the moral vacuity of a movement like Black Lives Matter. The people in this movement do not care about and felt no need to protest the dozens of black lives being mowed down by their fellow blacks in places like Chicago. No mass vigils with faux civil rights leaders like Sharpton and Jackson flying in. No media frenzy. No comment from the president. Nothing. It's only when a stray white cop who seems to murder a black man that people go ballistic. Never mind the fact that at least half the officers involved in these high profile cases have been acquitted once further evidence is brought to light and are not even white. No matter, it's all one vast conspiracy of "systemic racism."

I would also add that poverty doesn't have to or always lead to crime. My family was extremely poor for a time, to the point of being on food stamps, but it never occurred to me or my parents to result to violence or illegal behavior. And why was that? Because we were raised in an environment that respected the rule of law, morality, education, and high culture (music, art, literature). The "culture" many blacks cultivate and associate with is revolting, with its glorification of violence and illiteracy, hatred of police and authority figures, the denigration of women, etc. You can go on about other causes for the present situation, but the primary one is cultural. Until blacks in greater numbers lay down their guns, stop having unprotected sex and abusing the women in their lives, respect authority and education, and attempt to find jobs, however entry-level they may be, that pay for their and their family's basic needs rather than tricking out their cars or buying iPads, then nothing much will change.

So, they cite an organization that isn't BLM to prove that BLM cares about black on black violence. Whites also do kill other whites, but not at the same rates as blacks killing other blacks. The latter are arrested more often because they commit more crimes. This is not hard to understand. And then, of course, "institutional racism," the tin-foil hat trump card, which is the nebulous borg-like hive mind that cops and damn near everyone else is supposedly tapping into. No facts, just -isms. Sorry MTV (really? MTV?), you're full of shit.

Sorry you didn't like the MTV video...hoped it would make it easier for you to understand.

I recently saw something I thought might be related to this topic.
Apparently pew research did a survey and found that about 2/3 of white people don't talk about race issues on social media.
Where as about 68% of blacks participate in sharing or viewing content related to racial issues on social media.

Perhaps one of the problems surrounding the issue of race relations is that most white people are not discussing that issue.

That, it could be argued, is structural impediment to progress in creating a more just society for everyone.

I'd say it's just the opposite. The "non-prejudical" aspects aren't separate to social problems and how our society is failing black people. Consider the higher crime rate. What does this mean? What happens when someone is committing crimes? They become targets for the police.

The police are quite literally out to get black people who are committing crimes. Before we even get to the question of specific racial abuse enacted by police, there is already a racially charged element which affects the black people-- the police, by their very mission, are out to get more black people and have an impact on the individuals in their community.

Racism is not merely a question of one individual abusing another. It's also about the social context and the impact it has on people's lives. To be poor, committing crimes and to be sort after by the police (even if the person is guilty and justly pursued) are factors of prejudice themselves. — TheWillowOfDarkness

The way you say it though, "police are quite literally out to get black people", is unnecessarily divisive and somewhat misleading given the larger context of the question we're asking which is "How much of a causal force is racism against blacks regarding police use of force". The answer to that question is informally contained in the mantra "police are out to get black people".

You must understand that in order to get an accurate picture of how much a factor "racism" is in the use of force by police, we also need to get an idea of the "non-racism" factors which lead to police use of force (incompetent police/procedures, deleterious criminal law, and also the behavior of the civilians themselves (i.e: behavior; are they brandishing a weapon, are they responding to commands, are they attacking an officer, etc...))

If we want to say with any kind of confidence and accuracy the role that racism plays in today's world, we MUST separate it out from other worldly causes, or at least TRY to.

The fact that police (of any kind) have increased presence in high crime communities exacerbates tensions between police and civilians, which indirectly contributes to even more negative interactions between police and civilians, and is a causal force we ought to make an effort to understand, but this is not even inherently a racial issue. Many poor white communities which see higher rates of crime than the rest of society also have increased police presence and also have a staunch resentment and hatred of the police.

By saying that "the police by their very mission are out to get more black people" you're concealing the other realities as to why police end up arresting disproportionately more blacks than whites. It's not so cut and dried; prejudice does not explain all.

You say that to be poor, committing crimes, and being sought after by the police are all symptoms of prejudice. How is this racial prejudice responsible for the disproportionate rates at which poor white people are sought by the police for being criminals? Would it not be a different kind of prejudice?

A "non-racial-prejudice" perhaps?

I quite understand that white folks don't see it and don't want to see it. I could present experimental evidence, as I have in the past, and reference psychological theories to support my position, but if you deny my direct experience, then you will easily deny the supporting evidence, so I won't trouble. — unenlightened

Frankly it is very easy to deny your direct experience because my own direct experience contradicts it. The kind of evidence I'm looking for is two fold: firstly I'm looking for evidence that will give me understanding or predictive power over the numerous causative factors which perpetuate certain inequalities evident in many black communities (namely but not exclusively, police use of violence), and secondly, data which will give me a better view of the overall scope and magnitude of the aforementioned inequalities and their causes.

Your experiences alone simply cannot help me get a picture of the overall magnitude of the problem of racism, all they can really do is give me examples of how racism plays out day-to-day. This could be useful since these examples of racism, if prevalent enough, surely could contribute to the continued economic depression that traps many black communities. You have however opted to provide examples of subtle racism; micro-aggressions. And while micro-aggressions are very prevalent, they simply do not amount to much in the way of keeping whole communities economically depressed.

I understand that it can be a horrible experience to be collected as a token black friend, or to question the beauty of your own skin, or to be stared at because you are different, but frankly this kind of prejudice concerns me the very least because all it hurts are people's feelings. I'm much more concerned with whether or not the police themselves are allowing prejudice to affect how they carry out their policing, and the direct factors which are currently leading to more crime, incarceration, and death in black communities. Are young black men killing each other in such terrifying numbers because of day-to-day prejudice? Do the psychological theories you have referenced explain it? Do your personal experiences have anything at all to say about this?

It is, alas, the smallness of each incident that makes it deniable; how the good looking people always 'accidentally' get the best table at a restaurant, how the concerned citizen chooses to intervene on the occasion when the suspect just happens to be black, how the store detective just happens to be watching the foreign woman for some very good reason. You know it took me a while to notice it myself; perhaps if you chat to some of your black friends and neighbours about it they will start to point it out to you as you go about town. Each time it will look like bad luck, or coincidence, until eventually that cannot be sustained. — unenlightened

There are many differences between the set of factors that keep individuals and whole communities (black or white) impoverished and afflicted by perpetual crime, and the set of social pangs that being a minority can come with. There is some overlap, but the contribution that a prejudiced individual picking on a minority individual has in comparison to the wider set of cultural and socioeconomic factors at hand, is minimal.

Without getting into a discussion of broad economic theory, the point I was making is that the minimum wage has not risen comparably to inflation and the cost of living. Minimum wage may or may not be a good thing, but since we've got it we might as well appraise how it's been performing.

Regarding economic vs cultural factors of crime specifically, there is a lot of inter-play between the two. Economy does have at least something to do with the prevalence of absentee fathers in black communities, which itself goes on to have broad economic and cultural implications of it's own. Being poor doesn't necessitate criminality, but it does incentivize economically motivated crimes. That said, I share many of the same sentiments that you do. The BLM movement needs to make room for all black victims of crime, not just the victims of crime carried out by the police. If it is unable to do so, it will in fact have demonstrated that it doesn't actually care about the lives of black people.

For a series that portrays itself as a "decoder" of controversy, it really does a poor job of doing so.

The speaker in the video very passively acknowledges that the black community is concerned with gun violence, and this somehow is meant to be equated with the BLM movement, while nearly the entire remainder of the video is spent explaining how the BLM is specifically an issue about police killings of civilians. She states:

"The truth is black people are not likely to commit crimes than anyone else. Because of a history of institutional racism, black communities have higher poverty rates, suffer from poorly funded schools, and are more likely to be targeted by police." — Franseca Ramsay

It's great that she brings up actual contemporary problems, but unfortunate that she equates it all to "institutional racism". She goes on to unequivocally state that "black on black crime is not a thing" and justifies this claim by bringing up the fact that most people who are murdered are murdered by someone of their own race. What she tacitly ignores, which is the actual contextual meaning of the term "black on black crime", is that blacks are killing other blacks at around four to five times the rate that whites are killing whites. She goes on to say that bringing up black on black crime is just a diversion to delegitimize outrage at police killings of black civilians, so if there was any doubt that her version of the BLM movement is specifically concerned with the police vs blacks, let it be put to rest.

The MTV video was mean't to be cheeky.

But, you must compare apples to apples. Comparing White on White crime to Black on Black crime is not appropriate because of the economic disparities within these groups. The following conclusions from the Bureau of Justice Statistics:

For the period 2008–12—
Persons in poor households at or below the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) (39.8 per 1,000) had more than double the rate of violent victimization as persons in high-income households (16.9 per 1,000).
Persons in poor households had a higher rate of violence involving a firearm (3.5 per 1,000) compared to persons above the FPL (0.8–2.5 per 1,000).
The overall pattern of poor persons having the highest rates of violent victimization was consistent for both whites and blacks. However, the rate of violent victimization for Hispanics did not vary across poverty levels.
Poor Hispanics (25.3 per 1,000) had lower rates of violence compared to poor whites (46.4 per 1,000) and poor blacks (43.4 per 1,000).
Poor persons living in urban areas (43.9 per 1,000) had violent victimization rates similar to poor persons living in rural areas (38.8 per 1,000).
Poor urban blacks (51.3 per 1,000) had rates of violence similar to poor urban whites (56.4 per 1,000).

Cities like Chicago have areas with 40 to 60% of people living below the poverty level. Black on Black crime and White on White crime within the same economic level are near parity.

I believe that poor people black and white are discriminated against institutionally. Look at the Bail Bonds system in this country. A poor black or white person who cannot raise bond has to go to jail, while a person with the cash can avoid jail and work, earn money, and fight whatever crime they have been accused of committing. A poor person has to work, so the prosecutor will offer a deal, they plead guilty to a crime and they get off, even if they were innocent, but now with a criminal record. The Department of Justice just filed (http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/08/19/Bail.pdf) an Amicus curiae brief suggesting the system is unconstitutional.

To say that the police are not complicit in their subjugation of black communities to to fly in the face of recent Department of Justice reports that suggest that cities such as Chicago, Baltimore and Ferguson are systematically racist.

"The Baltimore Police Department engaged in a pattern of stopping African-Americans without any real justification. Between 2010 and 2015, there were three hundred thousand police stops, of which less than four per cent resulted in a citation or arrest. Forty-four per cent of those stops occurred in two small, mostly black neighborhoods, and ninety-five per cent of people who were stopped ten times or more were African-American." The New Yorker 8/12/16

The Department of Justice found the " Ferguson Police Department was egregiously biased and mercenary"

Here from Washington Post 8/16/16 regarding the DOJ task force study of Chicago's police department:
,
"The task force offered a bleak assessment of how the department treats people of color. In their report, the task force members recounted how residents said officers treat minorities poorly and then paired this with police department data that “gives validity to the widely held belief the police have no regard for the sanctity of life when it comes to people of color.”

And, these are just some of the studies cited.

No, the institutionalization of racism is endemic, to deny this is to put your head in the sand.