I guess we'd have to look at our instruments. A measuring scale with an error margin of +/-1% would mean we're 99% sure. Right? — TheMadFool
(My italics)I think there is a distinction to be made between certitude, which is an attitude, and certainty, which is an undoubted fact. — Metaphysician Undercover
Both are attitudes. So now we are in agreement. — Banno
I have an attitude, and you have an attitude. The statement that we both have the same attitude is not itself an expression of an attitude — Metaphysician Undercover
Now what's the point you're making? — Srap Tasmaner
The first thing to note is that certainty is an attitude. — Banno
I think there is a distinction to be made between certitude, which is an attitude, and certainty, which is an undoubted fact. — Metaphysician Undercover
You suggest that certainty is an undoubted fact, but what does that entail, what is an example of undoubted fact. I doubt any undoubted facts, I think all facts are contingent, that all facts could have been otherwise. If so, does this reduce all certainty to certitude and does this mean that un-certitude is also an attitude. — Cavacava
I think all facts are contingent, that all facts could have been otherwise. If so, does this reduce all certainty to certitude and does this mean that un-certitude is also an attitude. — Cavacava
The universe will chug along? What does that mean? — Metaphysician Undercover
By "contingent" are you trying to say that there is no such things as how things are? I don't think that word serves this purpose.
As a matter of English usage, you might be right, but even if you are, it's only for the nouns: the adjective that goes with both "certainty" and "certitude" is "certain".
I still don't see a philosophical point. — Srap Tasmaner
No, but then again I don't think "how things are" can be known, only how things are for us can be known, which is where propositional attitude comes into play. What can or can't be subsumed as attitudinal in a proposition. — Cavacava
I tend to think it is b) and, if the only thing that can't be doubted is that every thing is absolutely contingent, then contingency itself is non-attitudinal...I guess my thought is that if anything is absolute, it is absolute de re. — Cavacava
But it means a completely different thing to say "it is certain" than to say "I am certain". Call it "objective" and "subjective" if you want, it's just the reality of the usage, these phrases mean completely different things. — Metaphysician Undercover
You've shown there's a grammatical difference, in the same way there's a grammatical difference between
Socrates is wise
Wisdom is instantiated by Socrates
Nowhere did you show there's a difference in meaning. — Srap Tasmaner
Certainties are not undoubted facts. — Banno
I just took the definition from the OED. — Metaphysician Undercover
The difference in meaning between "I" and "it" was not at issue; the question was whether "certain" means something different in "I am certain" than it does in "We're every last one of us certain". — Srap Tasmaner
I noted the pragmatics issue, that "I am certain" might count as a report. I don't think we'd want to say that by being used in such a report "certain" gets a different meaning. What should we say about the difference between a report and, I guess, "an observation"? — Srap Tasmaner
I don't see what you mean by "propositional attitude". An attitude is the property of an individual. My attitude is different from your attitude. On this premise, I assume that my attitude toward any given proposition is different from your attitude toward that proposition. If "how things are" is a matter of propositional attitude, how do you jump to the conclusion that there is such a thing as "how things are for us"?
I agree with you here, because this is the point I am arguing. What we refer to as a certainty, something which cannot be doubted, is something non-attitudinal. Whether there is anything which fulfills this condition is another question. However, if there is nothing, then what justifies the attitude of certitude? And if this attitude cannot be justified, then the attitude of uncertainty is the justified attitude.
Propositional attitudes are reports using attitudinal verbs like believe, hope, is certain, in 'that' sentences. I tell you that I am certain or uncertain can you deny my report? Sure you can deny the "that" part of it but not the attitudinal part, no? How things are as they are, can't be known, Kant showed this, so then reports of this type have to be how they are for the reporter. — Cavacava
My point is that in the phrase "it is certain", "is certain" is not attitudinal. Is this not obvious to you?
You appear to have proceeded with faulty logic. You say, Kant has convinced me that how things are cannot be known. Therefore when people talk in a way in which they claim that how things are is known, they cannot actually mean that how things are is known. So, you conclude that what they really mean when they sat that how things are is known, is that how things are to them is known. In reality though, they really mean that how things are is known.
Do you see the problem? People are claiming that how things are is known. You say that it is impossible that how things are is known. So you conclude that they are not really claiming that how things are is known. But just because it is impossible that how things are can be known, this does not mean that it is impossible for people to claim that how things are is known. And despite your false conclusion, people go on claiming that how things are is known, though this itself might be a falsity.
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