Also, to address your last comment. Just because there is a bigger market for something, based on the cultural/societal norm, doesn't mean that the market demand is morally acceptable. There was a bigger market for slave trading 300 years ago, but it would be ignorant to say "It's no coincidence that there's a much bigger market for blacks as slaves, and whites as friendly neighbors." — chatterbears
Other people's actions have an impact on the world around us. You don't live in a vacuum, as your actions and beliefs will also affect the lives of other people. Eating animal products causes more harm to the environment (which also affects other people, not just you), rather than eating a plant-based diet. To suggest "Let others live how they feel they should live", is completely ignorant to the harm that can come from that type of mindset.Alternatively, just continue to eat what you feel you should be eating, and let others do the same. — Txastopher
The problem here is the meat eater's blatant disregard for the harm that animal products cause. Not just to the environment or the health of humans, but also the animals themselves. Would you call the activists in favor of the prohibition of slavery 200 years ago, an act of self-righteousness? Vegans are trying to minimize the harm and suffering, just as slavery opposition was trying to do the same. If you want to equate that to self-righteousness, that's your problem.The problem here is not the vegan diet, the problem is vegan self-righteousness. — Txastopher
At some point, a vegan on this thread claimed that veganism is the sole logical conclusion of ethical thinking on diet. Well, it's been shown in multiple ways that this is a false claim. — Txastopher
I'm going to duck out of this thread now. I don't think I have anything more to say on the subject. — Txastopher
This is a public discussion and I am at liberty to comment on anything you say here. If you wanted a private one-on-one discussion, then you're doing it wrong. — Sapientia
But that doesn't address my comment. My comment was picking up on your faux questioning which is really just rhetorical. You're asking questions which you already know the answer to, which is superficial. You aren't seeking knowledge, you just don't like the answer. — Sapientia
All you said was something like, "I can only lead a bear to water." — chatterbears
So I'd suggest you stop responding to me, unless you're actually willing to answer questions I have asked you over a week ago. — chatterbears
What exact question [and be specific] is a rhetorical question? And if I already know the answer, is the answer that I know the same answer you know? If not, is the answer that has been presented to me, backed by facts and logic? — chatterbears
Do you deny that those questions of yours which I quoted only moments ago and can be easily found were rhetorical? If so, then why were you asking them? I don't see the need to genuinely ask those questions, unless you're so far gone that you can no longer even contemplate matters from a different perspective. — Sapientia
I don't think I could maintain my health if I did not eat meat... — VagabondSpectre
We got where we are by exploiting animals (cooking and eating animal meat is likely what permitted some of the evolutionarily recent improvements to homo-sapien brains) and globally we're not quite ready to give them up. — VagabondSpectre
Anyone living an aboriginal way of life eats meat out of necessity; plants don't have the energy/protein density of meat and it's hard as fuck to survive as an indigenous vegan (they all died). There is no argument to be made against meat eating in a traditional way of life.... — VagabondSpectre
If these third world countries did not utilize animal husbandry they would almost certainly be unable to produce a bountiful and diverse enough vegetable diet to keep their already under-nourished populations healthy. — VagabondSpectre
Maybe I could, but it would be at great expense to me and if I'm honest I worry such a radical change to my diet could lead to a radical change in my health. — VagabondSpectre
I didn't actually choose to be a meat eater, I was born with canines, and asking me to change smacks of sacrifice. Unnecessary cruelty to animals is definitely something we need to mitigate in the first world but we just don't know enough about diet and nutrition to eliminate meat from all of our diets. Vegans are guinea pigs. — VagabondSpectre
Furthermore, abstaining from hunting and consuming animals, or raising them, either leads to animal suffering anyway, or animal genocide. Human hunting is a natural part of a balanced ecosystem, and while over-hunting is bad, under-hunting can be just as bad or worse in destroying bio-diversity. Without farms that pay for themselves we must euthanize all those species (cows, pigs, chickens) which can no longer take care of themselves in a natural environment. — VagabondSpectre
Killing the deer saves the mouse and gives purpose to the wolf. — VagabondSpectre
We would be foolish to think that we have effective decision making power when it comes to what's best for nature; — VagabondSpectre
Why can't you find what I was referring to? Just go back to the comments and look at the quotes above them. It isn't difficult. Do you have some kind of disability which would make that unusually difficult? — Sapientia
Based on what standard. Have you done the necessary research? Have you talked to a dietician? Have you asked for help from Vegans who have lived healthy for years? — chatterbears
We can live healthier [for ourselves and the environment] if we adopt a plant-based diet. Whether or not the world is willing to give up a tradition or societal norm, is irrelevant to the facts. — chatterbears
Yet you are not in the position of an indigenous tribesman, so there's no need to compare yourself to them. Some Indigenous groups may have to eat meat because it is necessary for survival, but they also lack the education/awareness of animal replacements. You are not in that position, this is an irrelevant point. — chatterbears
Are you in a third world country? Probably not. But even so, most places "meat" is considered a luxury. Corn, rice, soy, grains, fruits, vegetables are much more accessible than animal products. — chatterbears
Again, as I intially stated. Have you consulted with a professional? Talked to other Vegans who have been healthy for years? Talked to Vegans who have a similar condition as you do in regards to metabolism? Talked to a dietician? — chatterbears
This is a complete dismissal of the current scientific consensus. We know as much about plant-based diets than we do about evolution by natural selection, or whether or not the earth is flat. I'll post some scientific journals for you in my Google Doc, since you seem to be unaware of the scientific research. — chatterbears
Here: https://www.veganoutreach.org/enewsletter/matheny.html
Look up Gaverick Matheny's reponse to Steven Davis in the Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics. This idea was refuted back in 2003.
Also. We would stop breeding animals into existence, while selling the majority [that are left over] for food, and keeping the rest in an animal sanctuary. — chatterbears
Killing deer in the wild is not comparable to breeding animals into existence, torturing them and then slaughtering them. Such as how they do it in factory farms. — chatterbears
But apparently we aren't foolish when we make the effective decision to use our power to breed animals into existence and torture them and kill them by the billions? Not to mention all the harm we do to sea life as well. — chatterbears
You may have done research, but did you do the proper research that would allow you to get the adequate vitamins and levels you need to be healthy? Have you tried to become Vegan for a month or two and then initiated a blood test to check your levels to see if you have any deficiencies? Have you then corrected those deficiencies by eating more of what you need to correct them? Or possibly tried taking supplements?I've done research, I've tried various diets, and I've known plenty of successful and failed vegans. If you're going to just refer me to a dietician I'm not sure we can have a discussion. — VagabondSpectre
I know vegans who are less healthy than they were on an omnivorous diet. Are they just doing it wrong? — VagabondSpectre
We may consume too much meat, but converting all that pastureland into farmland (and then somehow fertilizing it without cow-shit) is actually likely more expensive than the vegan dieticians let on. — VagabondSpectre
We could shop around for articles about nutrition and the economics of agriculture I suppose. I'm game for this but are you sure the scientific community has concluded in in these matters? — VagabondSpectre
eating meat is a part of who I am. I'm a part of the food chain; it's why I have incisors. — VagabondSpectre
If I was under-nourished, meat would indeed be a luxury, one that would improve my health. — VagabondSpectre
I would be happy to offer sources if you expect them. — VagabondSpectre
Plant-based diets can yield long-term health benefits but only when they're very well planned, and there isn't enough kale for all of us — VagabondSpectre
Is natural suffering fine because it's natural? — VagabondSpectre
I would wager that it would be better to be born, live, and suffer, than to have never been born at all. — VagabondSpectre
All humans will eventually be killed by something, and we have the exquisite torture of knowing, so should we stop breeding? — VagabondSpectre
We're obviously talking about cows, pigs, chickens and other animals that are most commonly eaten--animals which have been proven to be highly intelligent and capable of feeling physical and emotional pain — NKBJ
I mainly want to know because I feel like "sentient beings are a no-no line of argument" to be very exclusive and does not respect life as much as it should. We are the arbiters of who lives and who dies. The plant says, "I'm alive too!" and gets shut down because it isn't "sentient" enough. — yatagarasu
I never claimed that all animals can feel pain. I stated that all sentient animals can feel pain, which is what the science supports. And the science all supports the idea that a life-form such as a plant or microorganism [such as bacteria], does not have a central-nervous system or a brain to process pain. If you want to state that you don't need a brain or a nervous system to process pain, then you need to provide scientific evidence to support that ridiculous claim. — chatterbears
Again, as I said to Tomseltje, if you believe that plants can feel pain, please provide the scientific research to support that. — chatterbears
Plant and animal destruction for our livelihood can be avoided — yatagarasu
Not really, there are many single celled plants and animals that are undetectable with the naked human eye. Perhaps you meant to restrict it to plants and animals with a body mass over 100 gram orso. Otherwise how are you going to prevent a bug from flying in your mouth when you yawn while riding your bike? — Tomseltje
You may have done research, but did you do the proper research that would allow you to get the adequate vitamins and levels you need to be healthy? Have you tried to become Vegan for a month or two and then initiated a blood test to check your levels to see if you have any deficiencies? Have you then corrected those deficiencies by eating more of what you need to correct them? Or possibly tried taking supplements? — chatterbears
And regarding crops, using land to grow crops for animals is vastly inefficient. It takes almost 20 times less land to feed someone on a plant-based (vegan) diet than it does to feed a meat-eater since the crops are consumed directly instead of being used to feed animals. According to the U.N. Convention to Combat Desertification, it takes up to 10 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of meat, and in the United States alone, 56 million acres of land are used to grow feed for animals, while only 4 million acres are producing plants for humans to eat. — chatterbears
Most of the research is in my Google Doc, which I already linked you in my past response. Feel free to do your own research, because it is out there, just as the evidence for evolution is out there. — chatterbears
Vegans tend to be thinner, have lower serum cholesterol, and lower blood pressure, reducing their risk of heart disease. However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals. — Winston J Craig
The Hippo and Gorilla have incisors/fangs. Does this make them meat eaters? No, because they are Herbivores. — chatterbears
Meat isn't some magical pill that fixes people who are malnourished. Again, look up the studies yourself, or you can refer to the ones I have posted for you. — chatterbears
Yes please[[i]provide sources[/i]]. — chatterbears
As I said before, all diets (including omnivorous ones) need to be well-planned. And saying there isn't enough kale for all of us, is completely irrelevant and inaccurate. — chatterbears
It's not "fine", but it is better. Would you rather suffer from a disease (that is possibly curable), or have someone factory farm you, torture you, and then slit your throat? — chatterbears
So you're telling me that it is better to be born into torture and slaughter, than to not be born at all? That's just ridiculous, and you fundamentally know it. If you were given the choice to live again after this life, and the choice was to live as a factory farmed animal or not live at all, to say you would choose the factory farmed animal life is dishonest and absurd. — chatterbears
This is irrelevant. I am referring to causing unnecessary pain. We are all going to die some day by something, but in the meantime, it would be best to avoid causing each other (and other animals) unnecessary harm. Such as, going around and raping people. By your logic, we are all going to die any way, so should we all be okay with rape? — chatterbears
Well first of all, it would have to be intentional. So that example wouldn't be. XD But, yeah. I meant it in a general sense. You can avoid eating plants or animals but still survive if you wanted to. — yatagarasu
So, if i accidently run over a deer with my car and then eat it, and since the killing wasn't intentional it's ok?
I doubt humans can survive on eating funghi and bacteria solely as you seem to be claiming, while not accidently eating plants and/or animals. — Tomseltje
"Nonsensical" is the only way to describe something that makes no sense. Talking about what is better or worse for non-existing entities makes no sense — NKBJ
anecdotal — NKBJ
What's the difference between euthanasia + cremation and euthanasia + consumption? — VagabondSpectre
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