How is it subjective? Every statement looks objective to me. Is it not objectively true that you like orange juice, or does it depend on who you ask?P1. I like orange juice.
P2. I drink what I like if it is available.
P3. Orange juice is available.
C. I drink orange juice.
Is this not a logical argument? Is it not also a subjective one? — unenlightened
No. Equating consensus with objectivity would be overlooking the existence of mass-delusions, which need to be explained.I think this is usually called consensus, not objectivity. :chin: Objectivity, at least in its most absolute sense, is unchallengeably correct. A consensus is an opinion accepted by most/all; it need not be correct. — Pattern-chaser
Subjectivity is always less than objectivity because subjectivity can be seen as parts of objectivity. It's like having only one piece of the puzzle.What you seem to be saying here is that when we succeed in converting the subjective into the objective - and good luck with that! :wink: - we will "be at a more objective outlook". Well yes, but why would we even consider such a thing? Subject and object are complements, not enemies. Subjectivity is not less than (or greater than) objectivity; it's a different and complementary perspective. — Pattern-chaser
This represents how difficult to near-impossible it is to be attain true objectivity. — Harry Hindu
Heaps come in degrees. Objectivity comes in degrees. — Harry Hindu
Me liking orange juice is subjective. — Kamikaze Butter
Is it not objectively true that you like orange juice, or does it depend on who you ask? — Harry Hindu
Whether or not you like orange juice is objectively true or false. — ChrisH
but what does it mean to be 'objectively true or false'? — unenlightened
I've always assumed that 'objectively true' means true regardless of anyone's opinion/preferences.
That's why "X likes orange juice" is an objective claim. — ChrisH
I would have thought that the truth of 'X likes orange juice' was entirely dependent on X's preferences... — unenlightened
That isn't what I asked. If I asked Donald Trump, "Does Unelightened like orange juice?" will the fact that you do or don't like orange juice be based on Trump's answer, or based on the state-of-affairs that is your fondness of orange juice?Of course it depends who you ask. Some people will say "I don't like orange juice." — unenlightened
I don't see the fallacy in my post.There is that no true Scotsman fallacy again. He seems to like this thread a lot. — Posty McPostface
:sad: I never said we need to use it ad infinitum - only where it applies.Agreed, although I am wary of using that term ad infinitum. — Posty McPostface
Any time you make a value statement, you are making a subjective statement. Any time you make a statement about some state-of-affairs, like your relationship with orange juice, then you are making an objective statement. — Harry Hindu
Subjectivity is always less than objectivity because subjectivity can be seen as parts of objectivity. It's like having only one piece of the puzzle. — Harry Hindu
Ancient Greek subject-object metaphysics divides (life, the universe and) Everything into subject and object as its first cut (as Pirsig puts it). — Pattern-chaser
There is nothing that is not stupid about the Cartesian outlook. — StreetlightX
No. Truth is the relationship between some state-of-affairs and some statement, explanation, or other representation of that state-of-affairs. Values are derived from having goals.Ok. Would you say that truth is a value? — unenlightened
Truth is the relationship between some state-of-affairs and some statement, explanation, or other representation of that state-of-affairs. Values are derived from having goals. — Harry Hindu
When a statement is true solely by virtue of corresponding to the speaker's belief, then it ought be called something along the lines of "subjectively true"; "true by virtue of sincerity"; or perhaps "true by subjective means"...
...When a statement is true regardless of whether or not it corresponds to the speaker's belief, then it ought be called something along the lines of "objectively true"; "true by virtue of others' belief"; or perhaps "true by objective means". — creativesoul
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