why can the Cosmos itself not be the uncaused cause of all things? — Janus
In your kind of model the radical vagueness or indeterminacy is not only "there" at the beginning of time but "always", no? It is the eternal out of which the temporal forever emerges? Do you presume it to be radically indeterminate in itself or merely for us? — Janus
If there is no time, then emergence, which is a type of change, is impossible. So it doesn't make any sense to say that there was potential before there was time, — Metaphysician Undercover
For you to talk about what it is "in itself" is already smuggling unwarranted definiteness into the concept of the vague. — apokrisis
So what emerges by a dichotomous separation is the clarity that all structured being lies defined by these two absolute limits - that of the vague and the crisp. — apokrisis
One intuitive observation is that there is nothing that is known that is its own cause. What would it mean to say that something ‘is its own cause?’ Is there anything like that in experience? So saying the cosmos is 'its own cause' basically is saying 'it just is'. — Wayfarer
Except for in that case, there was a (sometimes tacit) agreement to seek for it in any terms other than the religious, for the reasons that you yourself frequently articulate: scepticism of the idea of there being a higher truth or any form religious authority. That anti-religion is what I say is a cultural meme found widely in Western culture as a kind of reactive scepticism. — Wayfarer
But what I am seeking, or the way that I understand the term 'enlightenment', is more to do with the transformation of perception - a radical re-ordering of the way we see the world. We spoke before about experiences under entheogens - it is like that, with the caveat that it can't be obtained by artificial means, on account of those experiences always being transient, and also the consequent lack of ability to integrate the insight into real life. — Wayfarer
I'm saying time emerges. — apokrisis
Now you can ignore what the physics suggests on this score. But I prefer to let the available evidence inform the metaphysics. Especially when on logical grounds, Peirce had already set out the machinery of this kind of radically emergent ontology. — apokrisis
Do you agree that emergence is a type of change? And doesn't change require time? — Metaphysician Undercover
I think the problem is the same for the "crisp". — Janus
It seems to me that insofar as structured being can be defined it is defined in crisp terms. It doesn't make much sense to me to define something in vague terms; a vague definition is not a definition at all precisely to the extent that it is vague. — Janus
Say you believe that prior to the BIg Bang there was a "sea" of quantum fluctuations. or some such. Would that be a state of absolute vagueness? Would there be any determinacy in that? Or would there be any determinacy in anything at all independently of us? An undetermined determinacy perhaps? — Janus
You keep trying to trap me into talking your way - where vagueness is understood as something dualistically independent. — apokrisis
I thought I had explained that. It is 'reactive' in the sense that it's a reaction against the previous accepted order - something like the dialectic of thesis and anti-thesis, where the thesis was classical theism, and the anti-thesis is scientific materialism. That was why I brought in Nagel's 'fear of religion'. It is practically instinctive.I don't understand why you call it a "reactive scepticism". — Janus
But why could the Cosmos not be self-creating if the purported creator could be? — Janus
From the few existing fragments, we learn that [Animaxander] believed the beginning or ultimate reality (arche) is eternal and infinite, or boundless (apeiron), subject to neither old age nor decay, which perpetually yields fresh materials from which everything we can perceive is derived. — Wikipedia
on the one hand the universe is composed of hierarchically distinct things, but on the other all things are part of a single continuous emanation...from the One [incidentally, 'emanation' is regarded as something distinct from 'creation'.] From this latter perspective, the many distinctions to be found in the universe are a result of the divided perspective of the human psyche, which needs to make distinctions in its own thought in order to understand...
How many so-called "Gurus" have deluded themselves and others? — Janus
I just think it would be in the interest of intellectual integrity and honesty to oneself to acknowledge that it cannot ever be more than a matter of faith, unless and until I can directly experience the reality of constant samadhi. — Janus
Subsequently it became glossed as 'religious conversion' and categorised along with other religious ideas but I think originally it had that particular meaning i.e. 'transformative change of perception or outlook'.'Metanoia, a transliteration of the Greek μετάνοια, can be defined as "a transformative change of heart; especially: a spiritual conversion." The term suggests repudiation, change of mind, repentance, or atonement.'
How would any of us ever be able to tell the difference, or follow anything other than what 'feels right" to us personally? — Janus
Isn’t that why Platonism ran into problems? We can imagine the ideal triangle. We also accept that no actual triangle would be so perfect. So we can imagine the structure (of symmetries) as being perfect and ideal. — apokrisis
Time is change with a general direction. That general direction is what emerges due to symmetry breaking. So time does not pre-exist change as such when there is only change, or fluctuation, lacking in a general direction. — apokrisis
If you deny the need for a directing agent, then you are only saying that order could emerge out of disorder. — Metaphysician Undercover
Right, that's exactly the uneducated metaphysical speculation I was referring to. — Metaphysician Undercover
So it would be reasonable to think that the 'aperion' is not something 'created' — Wayfarer
You are trying to assimilate the Apeiron to a materialist ontology. — apokrisis
I thought I had explained that. It is 'reactive' in the sense that it's a reaction against the previous accepted order - something like the dialectic of thesis and anti-thesis, where the thesis was classical theism, and the anti-thesis is scientific materialism. That was why I brought in Nagel's 'fear of religion'. It is practically instinctive. — Wayfarer
So it would be reasonable to think that the 'aperion' is not something 'created' - although such ideas were to evolve considerably in the subsequent tradition. — Wayfarer
Clearly, very many. But there would be no fool's gold if there were no gold; if there were no genuine article, then there would be nothing to counterfeit. — Wayfarer
It's not so much living in such a state. It's more that the insights arising from such states are what is significant about them. I think it is what I think 'meta-noia' originally meant: — Wayfarer
Do you think that there’s any relationship between these ‘six numbers’ and the ‘constraints’ you’re referring to? — Wayfarer
The connection between constraints and constants is thus that the vital numbers are emergent from the constrained relations. — apokrisis
Rees of course confuses the issue — apokrisis
Fundamental constants are finely tuned for life. A remarkable fact about our universe is that physical constants have just the right values needed to allow for complex structures, including living things. Steven Weinberg, Martin Rees, Leonard Susskind and others contend that an exotic multiverse provides a tidy explanation for this apparent coincidence: if all possible values occur in a large enough collection of universes, then viable ones for life will surely be found somewhere.
I don't deny that there may be insights that come from altered states of consciousness. whether drug-induced or not, but they need to be thought through and integrated into our daily lives if they are to be of value. — Janus
it can't be obtained by artificial means, on account of those experiences always being transient, and also the consequent lack of ability to integrate the insight into real life. — Wayfarer
Someone who questions and loses faith in the deliverances of religion has no need to fear it. — Janus
the cosmological principle that theories of the universe are constrained by the necessity to allow human existence.
If we say "this was unlikely to have happened by chance it must be a one in a million", where are we getting the million figure from? — Pseudonym
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